NO START, NO CRANKING CONDITION- seeking diagnostic avice!

[SDEconVan]

NO START, NO CRANKING CONDITION- seeking diagnostic advice!

This is my dream diesel, so I'm taking my time. I haven't even driven it yet! ha. Got a bit more work before I can drive it, but was able to start the engine today just to see that I wired up properly.

That was fine. Glow plugs lit for about 20 seconds, and she fired up in less than a single rotation. (I replaced the Return Lines, and bled it, this is the first start, thought it would take a little fussing, but got lucky.) I have started this thing 6 times since I've owned it (still not driving quite yet, still finishing up the details.)
And it has performed perfectly. I've had it run as long as 10 minutes, I notice the GPs continue to cycle as it warms up, sounds pretty good overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0igJYq_J8k&feature=youtu.be

This is hilarious. I pull out of the bay, take my video to impress you guys, shut her off for a second, go to start back up, aaaand... NOTHING.

Here is what I get:
In Park, put key in, door chime, turn key, dash lights on (brake/GP/WiF/CE and clock,) GP solenoid cycles, turn key for start, lights turn off, NOTHING

I'm laughing at this. But I was also seeking any advice since it's my first diesel. With a gasser I'd "arc the starter" to bypass but not sure with the diesel since I might make the Glow Plug circuit angry or something worse...

Oh, my IGN SW feels a little "mushy" but always has, it does return on its' own when I crank to start. Any other info needed?
"Which way did he go George, which way did he go?"

I have to go try and push this beast back inside... Back in a bit.
Best regards,
George

 

[laserjock]

You can do the same thing just turn the key to run and jump the solenoid. If that does the job, you've probably got a switch problem.

 

[SDEconVan]

Thanks laserjock, I'll give that a try. Being cautious as I learn more about these diesels, very simple overall. I left the shop for the day, MAN that beast is HEAVY, I just about popped a swivel pushing it back into the work bay...

Oh, got new batteries, both show 12.4v, have the Driver's Side on trickle charge overnight (I think it's for starting, PS is for glow plugs.)

Best regards,
George

 

[laserjock]

They are tied together on the trucks. Should be on the vans too I would think.

 

[SDEconVan]

Ok, I'll balance out the charging before I try to arc the starter... Thanks for the knowledge!

 

[TahoeTom]

The GPs will cycle for a few times after starting, but should stop after a few cycles. If they continue to cycle the controller is bad. It is threaded into the top of the drivers side head at the rear... should be easy access in a van. You could bypass it with a push button. The glow plugs probably will burn out if they don't stop cycling. I think Accurate Diesel sells an improved solid state controller for the 6.9. I think Mel at Conestoga Diesel (Agnem on here) said he was using a controller made by Delphi.

 

[79jasper]

I would check the park reverse neutral switch thing on the trans.

Sent from my SM-T537R4 using Tapatalk

 

[david85]

I would check the park reverse neutral switch thing on the trans.

Sent from my SM-T537R4 using Tapatalk

+1. Also try moving the shift lever to neutral to see if that changes anything.

Otherwise it could be along the wiring to the solenoids. A test light at the coil for the relay will confirm if power is getting there. Just have to work your way through the wiring down to the starter. Nothing really that special about it really.

 

[IDIoit]

+2 on the shifter.
how are your battery cables? are the connectors clean and tight?
ive seen cables act this way also

i thought my 87 F350 6 door was heavy, try pushing a 69 dodge charger R/T with a 440 and a locked rearend.

 

[SDEconVan]

I didn't have enough time to try much stuff, and didn't read all the suggestions until I got home. I ran a screw driver between the posts of the starter, and it spun but did not engage. I tried it two times then more customers came in so I had to stop. I will have more time tomorrow and will try more stuff, and have more information.

@TahoeTom-
When the engine ran, in times previous, the glow plugs cycled 3 maybe 4 times, in shorter and shorter intervals, then would stop completely. Thanks for the tip on the Solid State Controller, I plan to do that mod for sure- more reliability.

@79Jasper-
I posted the modification I had to do to the MLPS (TR) for my transmission. The case is 1998, but the guts are not digital, more like upgraded 1995 style analog. I am starting to think the mounting bosses for the TR are different for the 1998 E4OD case. I used a Dremel to elongate the holes to make the 1995-style MLPS work. I worked several times before this issue. The MLPS could be the culprit, but need to know the diagnostic steps.

@david85-
When I first noticed the No Start/No Crank issue, it was happening in Park but not in Neutral. Now it happens in both. Also applied pressure in both directions within P and N, and nothing. Could be cables, and I have a Multimeter, just need to know where to check, meaning where to start on the diesel, mostly because of the GPs and dual Batt circuits which I am new to...

@IDIoit-
Definitely going to check cables, tomorrow I will have time, and will check the connections on the posts and work my way down. I also have a post cleaner to eliminate that as well.

Will post what I get, thanks guys.

Best regards,
George

 

[79jasper]

I'm not sure the exact process to test the MLPS. But I mentioned it from seeing your other thread.
When thinking of the batteries, think of them as one battery.

Sent from my SM-T537R4 using Tapatalk

 

[skeeter72]

+2 on the shifter.
how are your battery cables? are the connectors clean and tight?
ive seen cables act this way also

i thought my 87 F350 6 door was heavy, try pushing a 69 dodge charger R/T with a 440 and a locked rearend.

For me at least, a no start is a bad connection between the battery and cables, if not then between the the connectors and the cables. Before you go short circuiting anything. Just try cleaning terminals and tightening connectors. My mind always goes to worst case scenario when it is actually the simplest of the problems. Good luck. The interior looks really nice.

 

[IDIoit]

i have a buddy with a 87 F250 w/ a 6.9 he had this same problem also. turned out to be one of the top posts on the battery that was busted.
all signs of good power were there until he went to crank it.
FWIW

 

[madpogue]

All great speculations, all of which can be put to rest with one or two simple TESTS.
* Remove the small push-on terminal from the starter relay, put a voltmeter on that wire (black probe to ground), have someone turn the key to START. If you have no voltage, problem is UPSTREAM - neutral safety switch, ignition switch, wiring in that circuit, fuse that energizes that circuit. If you DO get voltage, problem is DOWNSTREAM - relay, starter, main wiring. Next test:
* Reconnect that terminal, and put the meter on the large terminal of the relay that holds the wire that goes down to the solenoid. Have someone turn the key to START. If you have voltage, starter relay is GOOD. Problem is with main power connections, starter, batteries.

 

[SDEconVan]

@79jasper-

"When thinking of the batteries, think of them as one battery."

Okay, this helps a lot, since I had no experience with it, thank you. I will look up MLPS diagnostic methods, seems like I can just put the sensor and hold it
while watching my US Shift display. More on that soon.

@skeeter72-

Actually, batteries could very well be the, or part, of the problem because the batteries are brand new, I have less than a dozen starts with them. If one of them is bad, that could be a enough to screw things up (?) but they act in unison... ...the odds of both being bad is pretty high though.

I remember scrubbing the 4 clamps, I even bought new pinch bolts. However I didn't check the cables themselves. From what I can see of the cables they are in real good visual shape for 30 years old. Makes sense to trace each cable regardless, less chances at an F-up later on. I'll report on that soon.

@IDIoit-

"...turned out to be one of the top posts on the battery that was busted."

That's one of those hidden treasures that could totally screw the pooch. I will inspect and report it back. Probably just grab and wiggle? I think a load test could help, but I will wait on that for the time-being.

@madpogue-

Great diagnostic, thank you. I will implement. Today things forced me into just a few minutes, and I did start in that direction of looking at the Starter Solenoid. (See below)

**********************************

Dang it, things got beyond my control at the shop and I ran out of decent time to do the above tests ^^^, but a couple things have come to light before I start...

...being a van, I can reach the starter from inside the cab.

You must be registered for see images attach

(looking down from inside cab on Passenger's Side, Starter Solenoid is apparent.)

I reached down to feel the "small black wire" (IGN SW signal to start) and had this happen:

You must be registered for see images attach

The starter wire was in one piece, BUT I barely wiggled it and it came apart. Was I too rough with it? Not really, it didn't feel solid, and it came apart, I'll put it that way.

Tomorrow I'll get that connected back up and will do the diag tests that were suggested.

BTW, the measured voltage of the batteries were 12.7 and 12.8v (ground clamps off.)

Thanks for all the ideas and help, I hope to knock this one out soon.
Best regards,
George