Hydrogen injection ???

[FordGuy100]

So I was going through craigslist, and I stumbled across this. http://www.umpquaenergy.com

Have you guys ever heard of this? They do say hydrogen and oxygen, so maybe there talking about water .

 

[spencnaz]

I gave this some thought a while back. After figuring out all the math and the amount of energy supposedly gained, all I found out was that it took just the same amount of power from my alternator than what was coming out of the hydrogen generator.

The only benefit that I could see from running hydrogen in a truck is to have a tank system just like what is used on a propane injection system. However, hydrogen as we all know is explosive and cannot be stored in a gaseous state due to the amount of space it needs in this form.

You have to store hydrogen under a great deal of pressure and at extreme cold to keep it in it's liquid state. Electrolysis of hydrogen from water is very energy intensive. The primary 'pushers' of the so-called hydrogen economy are the oil companies as they are largest source of hydrogen for industrial processes.

Ok, soapbox session over.

 

[sassyrel]

spenz--noticed any difference with the motor silk????? sassyrel

 

[swampdigger]

I'm with spencaz. You can store hydrogen, but it takes up a lot of space for the amount of energy contained in it--this is why hydrogen cars aren't running around right now, they don't have a good way to store it.

And the electricity required to make hydrogen through electrolysis requires a lot of energy--more energy that you get from burning it. Not bad if you're in a place with cheap grid power, but you certainly won't be doing it with your alternator. Although it would be an efficient way of implementing engine braking......

 

[The Warden]

The primary 'pushers' of the so-called hydrogen economy are the oil companies as they are largest source of hydrogen for industrial processes.

Where'd you get that from? Would LOVE to see more info on that subject...it'd be nice to have something to retaliate with when the hippies around here start talking about how hydrogen power is the best thing since sliced bread (I'm already able to shut them up re: hybrids )...

 

[spencnaz]

Question 1, MotorSilk: Yes I've noticed a marked improvement in mileage with my old 4x4. If I keep my foot out of it, I get about 19mpg, I was getting around 17 before. If I watch the acceleration and keep a steady pace, I can see as high as 21mpg.

Question 2, Hydrogen production: If you do a little digging via google, you'll find that large petroleum companies produce hydrogen as an industrial gas for petroleum production. Hydrogen is one of the by-products in the fractionation (i.e. cracking) of hydrocarbons. This hydrogen is sometimes sold to other companies or used in their own systems such as the production of ULSD.

Hydrogen would require about 20 years of infrastructure planning, let alone having the automakers reinventing all their tooling to produce a reliable vehicle. And, lets not forget about the transportation of liquified hydrogen gas. Would you like to have a tanker truck of liquid hydrogen right in front of you barreling down the freeway at 70mph? And last but not least, would you like to have a person yakking away on their cell phone while filling up their car with hydrogen at a filling station? Most people can't walk and chew gum at the same time let alone drive normally. I shudder to think about having some yahoo off the street handling an explosive cryogenic gas.

One of the attractions of biodiesel that hit me early on is that it doesn't take any special transport methods, no change of pumps, no change of infrastructure to supply it to the consumer. Existing pumps, hoses and trucks can be easily cleaned and readied for biodiesel dispensing. While I do not believe that biodiesel is the ultimate cureall for our future energy needs, I do believe it is a responsible step in the right direction by making a fuel from a waste product that would otherwise be contaminating a landfill somewhere.

And that is my logical editorial comment for the day.

 

[Mike]

Where'd you get that from? Would LOVE to see more info on that subject...it'd be nice to have something to retaliate with when the hippies around here start talking about how hydrogen power is the best thing since sliced bread (I'm already able to shut them up re: hybrids )...

Hydrogen is very inefficient and expensive to produce, we use it in the refineries and gas producing industry to aid in the processing of the raw materials. The easiest way to make hydrogen is in a Reducing Gas Generator, specifically you burn methane (CH4) at a substoichiometeric combustion rate and you get H2. Its only about 60-70% effecient. Another method is a process called steam reformation which is about 75% effecient. You will see that nearly all the hydrogen produced by a petroleum facilty is used on site for process use.

The so called hydrogen economy spoken of earlier in this thread is not likely to come to fruition, its a nice futurama pipe dream of some chemical engineer that is sitting at a beautiful mahogony desk in a grandly appointed suite some 50 floors above the rest of us working stiffs. There are just too many draw backs to hydrogen as a sole source of energy for it to be a reality.

just my two cents.

 

[The Warden]

Wow, and I was just asking why the oil companies were the ones pushing it (and looking for something to support it)...thanks!

I remember someone, I think on a different board, once saying that the engineers were having problems with leaking pipes/fittings? They were claiming that hydrogen in gas form was so small molecularly that it could basically escape from anything. There wasn't anything to back that up, however. Any thoughts on that claim, one way or the other? I'm a historian, not a chemist, so I can't say I know much about it

Let's see how far OT this thread can go

 

[Mike]

Because it is a small, energetic molecule, hydrogen tends to diffuse through any liner material intended to contain it, leading to the embrittlement, or weakening, of its container.

The best way to store H2 is in a liquid phase, but H2 doesnt go to liquid phase easily (or cheaply). It has to be compressed and it turns to liquid at -420 some odd degrees F. Thusly your storage vessel has to be insulated or it will ice over and corrode to nothing in short order.

Go to Wikipedia and do some searching on Hydrogen and Hydrogen Economy. Lots of good info there Tim.

 

[Agnem]

I read this thread and all I can see in my mind is somebody at an IDI rally with a truck called "Hindenburg".

 

[towcat]

I read this thread and all I can see in my mind is somebody at an IDI rally with a truck called "Furd von Hindenburg".

fixed it for ya!

 

[spencnaz]

Thanks for the addition there 95Stroker. I agree with you, the hydrogen economy is a pipe dream. They've been spewing the 'merits' of hydrogen for everyday use at least since I was a kid in the late 70's.

Lockheed's Skunk Works was presented 80 million by the USAF to design and test a hydrogen powered spyplane under the codename Suntan. It was going to fly at Mach 2.5 and 90,000 feet. After all the design analysis it was going to turn out to be a widebodied dog due to the volume of the hydrogen fuel tanks for the range required. Kelly Johnson (the head of the Skunk Works at the time) returned all the money to the USAF.

 

[dan.wells]

Hydrogen Injection

Hello,

My name is Daniel Wells and I am the founder of Umpqua Energy. I found this forum in my website logs and have read the posts and would like to comment.

First, I totally agree with the posts regarding the hydrogen economy. We are way off before the infrastructure will be in place to accomodate such a thing.

Secondly, when the oil industry decides to build the infrastructure for the hydrogen economy, then the hydrogen economy will exist.

Lastly, we use on-board electrolysis to make hydrogen to immediately be consumed and blended with the primary fuel. The alternator is sufficient for this. The power gains come from the fact that there is a more complete burn of the primary fuel which increases fuel economy and reduces emissions.

Our target market is large diesel applications since they are able to show a rapid return on investment for the equipment purchase since they are spending ~50k per year in fuel, a 10% savings in fuel economy will pay off the equipment in ~12 months.

Daniel Wells

 

[spencnaz]

Then would you be so kind as to provide the flow rates for the hydrogen generator in relationship to the amperage draw from the alternator?

 

[Agnem]

Thanks for stopping in Dan. Always interesting to hear first hand info.