Coolant comsumption

[Goofyexponent]

OK, here goes. Moderators, please move with if you feel it should be moved. I am not looking for specifics, just general input and I figgured it would get more hits here.

I want to keep this civil, becuse I MAY have to use quotes off this in an interview with head office of IH. If you guys have differences of opinion, PLEASE do not hash it out here. I can understand differences of opinion, and we should have debate here, but please do it respectfully.

Please, when you post, state if you mind me quoting your reply (no names will be mentioned, even if you give me permission I am not using a name), ANY mechanical expirence and backround and why you think coolant being burned is an issue in a direct injection diesel engine.

The issue is this....

My buddy has a '10 IH Maxxforce 350 HP engine in his Workstar. It is losing coolant out the butt...since 6200 miles, he has been fighting with them with NO results from them. They told him it was a cold leak, but wouldn't compression check the coolant system until I made the owner DEMAND they do it at THEIR cost.

The truck now has a hair under 50 000 MILES on it, and has drank something like 6 or 8 gallons of coolant....most of it being consumed over the past 3 - 5 months.


IH knows about it, and has been telling him to keep an eye on his coolant loss. (BRAND NEW TRUCK, WHY IS IT LOSING COOLANT?!) They claim that so long as no white smoke is blowing from the stack, that up to a gallon per week is "normal" consumption and won't hurt anything. There about 15 trucks around here that are all acting the same way. So it's not my buddy or his driving technique.

I know my opinion on this. ANY liquid besides fuel that is introduced into the cumbustion chamber on an engine that has a 17.5:1 compression ratio is just asking for problems.

Anyone who does not know, the DT/HT 570's Maxxforce 9's and 10's (for sure, possibly other IH engines as well) are losing coolant through burst EGR coolers. This lets the engine drink it's own coolant.

EVERY truck I have seen with these mentioned engine are in for a COMPLETE rebuild before 60K MILES...

I have done a PILE of research and found that the coolant is to blame. The silicate drops out, plugs off the TINY passages in the EGR and oil coolers and causes all sorts of problems.

Anyone know of ANYONE else with similar issues and getting the run around from IH?

 

[turbodiesel94]

Basically same problem as the 6.0PSD's. Oil Cooler gets clogged, Not enough coolant to EGR cooler, EGR cooler ruptures due to flash boiling of coolant and extreme heat, Coolant goes into intake via EGR valve, Creates excessive cyl. pressures and loses head gaskets, cracks head or etc.

I'm interested to know what kind of coolant they use in the IH trucks? I know it is thought that part of the problem in the Fords is the crappy Ford Gold Coolant.

 

[George D.]

International uses fleet ethalyn glycal in newer trucks and propalyn glychol in older trucks. If I remeber corectly propalyn glychol dosent smoke so much when put threw the cyliners I know if we got a truck in that was useing excesive coolant we'd look in the egr cooler if we found no external leaks if I were you I would demand they pull the egr cooler and presure test it. Also when IH dealers are working on vwhicles under warenty to replace a expensive part they have to get permision from quasi engineers so and the dealer dosen't get payd to check things if thouse guys don't aprove it so they may be telling dealer they can't do anything unless its smoking.

In a couple I'll talk to some people and see what can be done about this or if IH is just going to tell you to pound sand.

 

[George D.]

Oh and you can quote me if you'd like

 

[Goofyexponent]

I know for a FACT that shell rotella coolant is used in the IH trucks. there is a HUGE sticker there that states FACTORY FILLED WITH SHELL ROTELLA COOLANT.

My buddy has had ONE cooler replaced under warranty. The coolant loss slowed, but it never once stopped completely.

It was still leaking, IH said they checked the primary AND secondary cooler with a visual....no bolts, clamps or ANYTHING showed signs of being removed. My buddy isn't very truck smart, and they know it. I am his secret weapon....soon to be revealed.

The guy behind the desk in there....Ken, is a COMPLETE mule's rearend. His attitude is "I'm Ken, I'm the service manager and I'm better than you"....I've heard the way he talks to people on the phones, and I have heard him say that these engines can drink a gallon of coolant poured into the intake and nothing gets hurt.

I wonder if they would freak out if I went to their lot, fired up a truck and poured $20worth of coolant into the intake......see how well they handle it then.

I appriciate the help George...I have a feeling that this is going to come to blows after the new year when people go back to work. there's about 9 brokers with 15 truck around here DEMANDING answers and all I can say to them is I am trying, and it looks like Navistar didn't learn anything after the 6.0 PSD

 

[Goofyexponent]

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=8424

Shell coolant.

George, you are saying this stuff won't smoke so badly when comsumed through the combustion chamber?

 

[icanfixall]

Sounds like the dealer is attempting to run out the warranty. Then tell the owner they found the leak and its going to cost you much bucks... A cover your ass attitude. No internal combustion engine can consume coolant and not end up with issues. Do an oil sample. That will tell this Ken jerk to get on the stick before it ends up his back side....

 

[turbodiesel94]

I agree on the oil analysis. A report showing coolant in the oil is something that they can't claim is acceptable. But I would make sure one of their employees sees you collecting the sample or have them do it to ensure you aren't accused of falsifying the test.

 

[BigRigTech]

It's not strictly an IH issue...Lots of manufacturers running EGR coolers have issues. These engines run hotter and the cooler is under a lot of stress. I've seen more than one Mercedes fail due to bearings getting wiped by coolant getting into the base...Not enough that you can see/smell it but enough to see it in an oil sample. Mercedes blamed it on the cooler leaking and warrantied them.

As for the 6.0's....I had a Navistar engineer tell me to my face that the cooler is was caused by NOT using the correct coolant....He said mixing coolants was death for a cooler in short order. I would tend to agree that is not a good practice. I use plain jane green coolant in all my stuff - easy to get, cheap and I've yet to have an issue with it. Now for the long life stuff - in a tractor trailer it's a waste of $$$....Between blown rads, split hoses, failed coolers and head gaskets the coolant is not in there for all that long in just about any truck. Unless the manufacturer specs something for warranty I run the green stuff....I do not buy "Universal coolant" either.

 

[turbodiesel94]

As for the 6.0's....I had a Navistar engineer tell me to my face that the cooler is was caused by NOT using the correct coolant....He said mixing coolants was death for a cooler in short order.

The IH version of the 6.0, the VT365 has had less issues with coolers clogging up and causing other problems. They of course run a different coolant than the Ford Gold. The thoughts are that the gold coolant is largely to blame in the clogged coolers. Was that engineer referring to the coolant ford uses?

 

[BigRigTech]

He told us it was the fact that people were mixing other coolants with the gold - that was causing the problem....He said it really didn't matter what you ran for coolant as long as it was not a mix. He still recommended the gold stuff and he said this was why Ford dropped the price on it closer to the other brands. He was here at the local Ford training center putting on a 6.0/6.4 maintenance do's/don'ts course. A lot of good it did for us as my shop doesn't stock gold coolant so what ever is on the shelf is what we are told to put in.........Ignorance is bliss when it's not your money.

 

[George D.]

Yup the red stuf doesn't smoke like the green. Have you only been dealing with the dealership? If so I'll try to find out who you need to talk to might be diffrent since you're up there.

VT365 had pleanty of problems with egr coolers. But alot of the problems with the 6.0s whas fords own fault Navistar built the engine but ford did the programing and the motor wasn't meant to put out the power the fords were or run that amount of fule they were practicly hydrolocking on it. Then when navistar relised they had a problem whith injectors they changed the programing ford fowlowed but the customers complaind about their trucks buzzing when they shut them off so ford changed it back then sued navistar for refusing to waranty the injectors that faild due to this.

 

[CDX825]

The shell coolant has no silicates in it. All the newer ELCs are the same way.

The 6.0s in the Ford trucks had the problem with silicates dropping out of suspension of the coolant. The Ford gold coolant is G-05 and has lots of silicates. International at the time was already using ELC in there trucks and did not have near the issues with cooler failures.

I agree with the others on the oil sample. Get one sent in ASAP!

If hes only been using one dealership maybe try another one.

 

[RLDSL]

I agree 100% on running an oil sample test. there s no way that much coolant can be consumed without serious dilution issues. Make sure the oil has not been changed recently before the sample is drawn.
Screw pulling the sample in front of them, they may start giving your friend crap for tampering with the thing. Get the sample kit and videotape the process of drawing teh sample from start to finish and have all witnesses sign the sample pack across the seal when you seal it up and include a notation from each on the form you send in regarding that they witnessed the drawing and sealing of teh sample and request that the lab maintain a chain of contact with that sample at all times until the report is issued ( attach it to the container so it doesn't get flung around ). THis way if something does show up on the report, you have something that would hold up in court

 

[Goofyexponent]

I forgot to mention, he did pick up an oil sampling kit, We just have to get the truck to his house to get the oil changed. There was over 3 gallons of coolant "lost" on this oil change, so it should show LOTS. We also got a coolant-hydrocarbon test kit as well. This will show symptoms of exhaust gasses in the coolant.

I have been reading that this ELC is a NO silicate, but in EVERY truck I look in, there is a MASSIVE amount of cilicate in the overflow tanks. This includes trucks that are running strictly on the shell ELC coolant.

Could shell be saying their coolant is no silicate, and then it actually being loaded down with silicates?

Is there a test I can do to make sediment readily drop out of suspension in a controlled environment?

We have been fighting with IH over this for a while. We started at the local dralership, called moncton, then Chicago, then they all said we had to deal with our local franchised branch......BIG time run around.

I do agree that every truck has it's issues, but lately these IH trucks have been dropping like flies...litterally.

It seems that a truck with an ISM in it is about the only way to go with a dump truck lately.