ZF5 Swap Progress

The Warden

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Hello!

As some of you know, I've been planning a transmission swap for a few months now. This actually started out as a need to change out the rear main seal on the engine. Then, much like my head gasket project last summer, I realized that my buddy Seth (who's now in a transmission and driveline class) was looking for a school project. Considering that there were 220K miles on my T-19 and at least 4 people (including me, back when I was 15) learned how to drive a clutch in this truck, I figured this would be a good time for a rebuild. Then, that voice saying "Why repair when you can upgrade?" (you know, the one that winds up draining your bank account when you least expect it) popped into my head...and I started looking around for a ZF5 to put in. I found one that was in need of rebuild for $500 (thanks again towcat), and thought to myself "Great! Tranny, clutch, rebuild kit, miscellaneous parts, a bit over $1000 total." Famous last words |stupid For various reasons, Seth wound up being unable to do the rebuild himself, so towcat came to the rescue again and introduced me to his tranny guy to get the rebuild done. With the rebuild being done professionally, and various other small surprises, I think I've got about $2300 into this now :shocked: It's a good thing this truck means so much to me and that I plan to keep her long-term; between this and the project last summer, I'm just about certain that I've poured far more $$ into her than would be considered wise.

So, that brings us to today. Seth is given one Friday per month to use the auto shop at his school for personal projects, so we walked in knowing that we had to get in and out today. Originally, we were supposed to start at noon and go as long as necessary, but Seth went and got a job :backoff and he couldn't get today off...so we weren't able to even start until 5:30pm. I spent the morning and afternoon gathering last-minute parts (the throwout bearing and rear main seal mentioned in other threads, for example) and removing everything I could while still being able to drive the truck. I drove over there with no front driveshaft and a hole where the transfer case shift lever used to be (among other things).

I walked in there thinking that there was no way we could get it done, but he assured me that it was possible. Again, famous last words...as my truck is currently sitting in the shop, on the lift (but the wheels are touching the ground), with nothing whatsoever connected to the back of the engine except for the flywheel. BTW, Seth was mainly working by himself. According to shop rules, I wasn't supposed to even be in the shop, but I hid out of the way and took pictures, and actually wound up helping a little.

In that time, the rear driveshaft was removed, the crossmember was partially unbolted, and the transfer case was removed. Based on what the shop manual said, it sounded like the tranny could come out with the crossmember still in place, but we couldn't figure out how...and the crossmember needed to come out anyways (the ZF5 crossmember is different), so Seth then got to work on pulling the crossmember. The crossmember, however, decided it didn't want to come out, and threw a fit when he tried. On the T-19 crossmember, there are two brackets that go up to the top rail of the frame, and from how the bolts are located, it's clear that the crossmember was installed at the factory before the cab was lowered onto the frame, and the Ford engineers didn't consider the possible need to ever remove the crossmember. The brackets unbolted from the crossmember without a problem, but it's impossible to remove the top bolts from the bracket with the cab in-place short of cutting the bolts, and while the crossmember would simply slide out with the brackets removed, with the brackets in place, it wasn't going anywhere. Seth wound up using a crowbar to bend the bracket slightly and a few love-taps with a BFH to push the crossmember out from under the bracket...and it finally came out.

It was 8:30 by this time, with an hour left before we had to start clean-up...and we knew at that point that there was no way we were going to finish tonight. Fortunately, the teacher supervising realized this as well, and came over to talk to us. During this talk, he decided to allow Seth to work on this on the mornings of Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday...so the pressure was at least removed, and we decided to try and do what we could before we had to clean up.

In that hour, we got the tranny removed (unbolted the tranny from the bellhousing), pulled the bellhousing, and got the pressure plate off of the flywheel. So, as of now, the old flywheel is still on the truck, but otherwise, everything's been removed that's going to come off.

At this point, the only two problems I can foresee are possible issues with changing the rear main seal, or getting the new crossmember in...but, I imagine more issues will crop up (get them Murphys away from me!!). I measured the T-19 and the ZF5 from bellhousing to transfer case mount, and it looks like they're the exact same length! 26.75 inches. So, no need to worry about driveshaft cutting... I also found that the T-19 and the ZF5 throwout bearings are different, due to different input shaft diameters. So, the greasable throwout bearing I bought is useless to me, now...but live and learn, eh? :)

I think that's about it...thank you all again for your help, and I'll keep you all updated as things progress! :thumbsup:
 

towcat

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youth, ambition and determination............ ;Sweet ;Sweet


what more can I say. Betcha Seth is gonna rethink his priorites in the future :rotflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao
I can smile because there was a time when I was your age where i did things a little dumber than that. Like R&R a Buick 455 on a sidewalk in Oakland. next time you see Brian S., he can tell you that story :D :D :D Gene Luo has a few stories like yours too. :rotflmao :rotflmao :rotflmao
 

NapaBavarian

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Yay! Warden is da man :D

Just because I'm planing on doing the same thing :D but I don't even have the truck yet :( but I wanted a couple measurements from the clutch or flywheel to see if I can use a stock t19 flywheel with a ZF5 clutch, I already checked and it looks like the ZF5 and t19 input shafts differ...

:hail
 

The Warden

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towcat said:
youth, ambition and determination............ ;Sweet ;Sweet
Umm, you forgot "stupidity" ;)

Betcha Seth is gonna rethink his priorites in the future
Seth's auto shop teacher actually talked to him about that, and I've had conversations with him about biting off more than he can chew in the past...he's a good kid, but has yet to realize his limitations. I'm hoping last night was a lesson to him regarding that, but I can foresee him getting into genuine trouble over that someday...

NapaBavarian said:
but I wanted a couple measurements from the clutch or flywheel to see if I can use a stock t19 flywheel with a ZF5 clutch, I already checked and it looks like the ZF5 and t19 input shafts differ...
I can answer that without actually measuring them. No! I actually was hoping the same thing (that I could use the flywheel from my T-19 with a ZF clutch), but towcat showed me a T-19 and a ZF5 flywheel...and the difference was clear. Take a look at the picture. If you see that ridge below the ring gear, this makes the ZF flywheel thicker than a T-19 flywheel, even though they're the same diameter. I'll take a picture comparing the new flywheel to my old one as soon as I get the old one out.

The factory setup for the ZF5 actually incorporates a dual-mass flywheel. With this setup, the flywheel is essentially two separate pieces, connected by a series of springs (I think I got that right; if I'm wrong, someone please correct me). This is why the ZF5 flywheel is thicker. The picture is of a single-mass flywheel that you can buy as part of a kit from LuK Clutch. The dual-mass flywheel is prone to issues (for instance, if all of the springs break, the engine side of the flywheel will spin freely while the tranny side doesn't move at all), so a few people on here have opted to either buy the LuK single-mass flywheel replacement or modify the dual-mass flywheel by basically bolting the engine side to the flywheel side. This is known as a Lucky Mod, and details are posted in the Tech Articles.

Because of the thicker flywheel on the ZF5, if a T-19 flywheel were to be used instead, the clutch disc wouldn't engage properly onto the tranny input shaft. That assumes that you could even bolt the pressure plate onto the flywheel...don't know either way, but I doubt it.

BTW, welcome aboard!! :thumbsup: Good luck finding a truck... BTW, I noticed you're from Napa. So, I have to ask...does this evil, posessed, God-forsaken trailer look familar to you? ;)
 

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NapaBavarian

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Thanks for the detailes :thumbsup: guess that means I'm out another $600, I hoped I could do it with the clutch and flywheel, it looked to me like the dual mass flywheel was almost $800 by its self cookoo so I wasn't going that route :(

As for the trailer, don't recognise it, but if you want to have a kitchen competition I'm a member of the Native Sons :D
 

NapaBavarian

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Hmmmm, just ran through your garage, why'd ya pick the US gear overdrive over the gear vendor?
 

towcat

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The Warden said:
Umm, you forgot "stupidity" ;)

Tim-
that part comes later in life. Adventures of the "brave, dumb and stupid" come when you know better from those choldhood adventures, refuse to admit your limintations, and your body can't take the abuse like you did when you were younger :D :rotflmao :rotflmao
 

The Warden

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NapaBavarian said:
As for the trailer, don't recognise it, but if you want to have a kitchen competition I'm a member of the Native Sons :D
*lol* I'm actually not a part of the Lions Club. I'm with the Sea Scouts, and the Lions Club lets us borrow that trailer once a year for a major competition in Redwood City, so we can feed the 500 or so kids who show up. Problem is, the trailer's ancient and not exactly safe...look at the "unstable trailer" thread in Towing & Hauling to see more details.

Hmmmm, just ran through your garage, why'd ya pick the US gear overdrive over the gear vendor?
The U.S. Gear unit goes between the transmission and the transfer case on a 4x4, whereas the GearVendors unit goes behind the transfer case. This means that the U.S. Gear unit can be used in 4 wheel drive, but the GearVendors unit can only be used in 2 wheel drive. Actually, from what I've read, it sounds like the GearVendors unit is more user-friendly...but, again, I'd rather be able to use it in 4 wheel. Got your PM and replied, BTW.

towcat said:
that part comes later in life. Adventures of the "brave, dumb and stupid" come when you know better from those choldhood adventures, refuse to admit your limintations, and your body can't take the abuse like you did when you were younger
Good point :D Only problem is, one of my mentors is the head engineer on the Scout boat...he's a mechanic for the city of Los Gatos and could give Jesse James (Monster Garage, not the 19th Century outlaw) a run for his $$ :shocked: ...and I've learned from him (for better or worse ;)) that just about anything's possible. This hasn't gotten me in trouble...yet (touch wood)...
 

Agnem

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Tim, I'm not sure why your friend had such trouble with the crossmember. Those upper bolts are a pain, but they can be dealt with. A popular mod is to cut the back half of the upper bracket off, so that once the bolts are removed, the cross member can be slid out. I've never done this, but it would be a real time saver, as those upper bracket bolts always take me a while to remove.
 

The Warden

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Mel, good point...I hadn't thought about it from that side. I have to ask, though...how do the bolts come out? It looks like there's just enough space between the cab floor and the top of the frame for the bolt head, with maybe 1/4" of wiggle room...so, while a wrench could be gotten in there to hold it and loosen the nut, I can't figure out for the life of me how the bolts actually come out. That said, I haven't tried myself...again, I'm not really allowed to even be there, let alone touch the project. Gets real frustrating at times -cuss I won't be there at all tomorrow...and, barring further problems, the truck should be finished tomorrow. Even if it's someone I trust (or, in this case, someone with good intentions and a teacher to lean on ;)), I always feel really edgy leaving my truck under someone elses' knife...

Update for today:

Unfortunately, Seth had a final this morning at 0930, so we only got about 2 hours in today (got there at 0630, started working at 0700, and had to stop and clean up at 0900). The good news is that, amazingly enough, those two hours went very smoothly! In that time, he pulled the flywheel, pulled the rear plate (don't know the proper name for it, but it's the one that the rear main seal presses into), replaced the rear main seal, put the rear plate back in, and installed the new flywheel and clutch assembly. So, it looks at this point like the next step is to put the ZF5 in...that should be happening first thing tomorrow morning. Unfortunately for me, I can't be there...so, instead of the nice pics with my camera, he gets to stop and take what pictures he can with a cheap disposable unit, and i get to wait until they're developed before posting them. But, that's better than nothing at all, right? And I have 75 pictures up to this point...so, all I need to do now is sit down, figure out which ones I can use, and start on the write-up...

Thank you all again! :cool
-Tim
 

towcat

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tim-
those bolts are captive until you unbolt your cab and lift it a little. the crossmember was installed on the frame before the cab was dropped on the assy line. when I get back, I'll show you my "dirty trick" to get the bolts off, but its dangerous at best. You will definitely need eye protection for this dumb stunt of mime. cookoo
 

argve

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towcat said:
tim-
those bolts are captive until you unbolt your cab and lift it a little. the crossmember was installed on the frame before the cab was dropped on the assy line. when I get back, I'll show you my "dirty trick" to get the bolts off, but its dangerous at best. You will definitely need eye protection for this dumb stunt of mime. cookoo


And you all think I'm cookoo !

You have to explain this now...
 

towcat

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argve said:
And you all think I'm cookoo !

You have to explain this now...
I already admitted that I am brave, dumb and stupid all rolled into one :D
who else would be changing out a motor in the middle of a ghetto? :D cookoo
I'll need to find some pics of the setup I am talking about and I will post later.
 

Agnem

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who else would be changing out a motor in the middle of a ghetto?

See, only you know your changing it. Everybody else just thinks your stealing it, and NOBODY is going to mess with a guy who's stealing an engine in broad daylight. LOL
 
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