ZF 5 help/questions

[FordGuy100]

This truck'll make my 3rd manual tranny that I've owned but so far all have been different so I don't really have any experience with them. 1962 Studebaker Lark 3 spd column shift, 1990 Eagle Talon 5 spd floor, and now the 1989 F350 ZF 5 spd floor with dual mass flywheel (DMF). I've never done ANY work on either of the two prior manuals I owned so I've got no experience with them at all.

Just FYI this truck has 120k on it and the previous owner said nothing had been done to the transmission.

First off I'm getting a couple different noises:

~The first noise I noticed is something that can best be described as a washing machine out of balance (that thud-a-thud rhythmic noise), this happens with the truck in neutral and the clutch (engaged, pedal released)...doesn't always happen but will usually happen if I let it idle that way for 30 seconds - minute and clears up with depressing the clutch. From what I've read this sounds like the beginning of failure of the dual mass flywheel (DMF) and can be corrected by a new DMF, making the DMF into a single mass flywheel (SMF) or switching to a SMF. Sound about right to anybody?

~The second noise is a rattling type noise that happens at idle with the clutch depressed (disengaged) and will clear up with a little of the accelerator pedal. This I've got no idea about and am assuming the DMF is to blame here as well, or maybe something is not letting the clutch fully disengage.

I've also got some symptoms:

~I've got two gears that I can't get into unless the clutch is fully depressed all the way to the floor, 1st and Reverse. I'm assuming this is something that would be taken care of with the components of a "clutch kit", but I don't know.

~Also seems like it takes a lot of pedal to switch gears while driving, I don't know if this is just because I'm comparing it to a car or whether I've got a worn clutch.

So I'm looking for a couple things from you guys.

~Does it seem like I'm on the right track and a "clutch kit" and doing something with the flywheel would take care of my problems?

~I can go with an OEM clutch kit and do some work (drilling out holes, bolting plates together, etc) to make the DMF into a SMF for $185 OR I can go with the Luk SMF conversion that comes with a new flywheel and clutch kit for $575. I'm willing to shell out some extra to make up for not having to work on the flywheel to convert it so that makes up some of the price difference, but is there a big difference between an OEM clutch and a Luk clutch? What's the difference? Since this things a worker I'm all about upgrading it more heavy duty and if there's a big difference it would make the cost difference negligible.

~How difficult is replacing a clutch (seems pretty straight-forward but I've never done one)? I'll likely be doing it myself and will have all sorts of tools (probably have to buy a HF tranny jack) courtesy of my wife's uncle's garage, only help I'll have is his (old man) direction and my Haynes manual. I told my dad that I was going to have to do my first clutch/flywheel job and his reply to me was "Don't worry about the first transmission, clutch, flywheel job---it's a FORD you'll have plenty of time to get good at them"...yeah, THANKS 'Bout the same amount of help I got with the water pump on that Talon (crappy Mits/Dodge) in the middle of winter when the only tools I had were a hammer and crescent wrench...and an apt. complex parking lot But oh well, that's a whole other mess.

Thanks for all the help/tips/direction. Sorry for all the questions.

Also, I'm usually maxing out the RPMs at 2400 b/c it sounds wound out then, but I heard on here saying keep RPMs up around 3800 when towing a load up a grade That's seems like I'd really be screaming then, am I just being from being used to driving/listening to gassers all this time? Just curious.

I cant really say anything about your tranny issues. But I can say that 3800 rpms is way high, unless you have a modded pump, and then I would only suggest you go that high if you get your entire rotating assembly balanced to perfection. I would say that 2400-2900 rpms are your best pulling rpm's when your going up a hill, and if you have a turbo or not. To me my truck feels like it starts de-fueling at around 3000 rpm's, but I bet its just because I dont have enough o2 because at around 3000 rpm's my truck starts spewing out the grayish-black smoke. Any stock pump should have a set redline at 3300 rpms if I remember right.

 

[payableondeath6]

For thoughts & tips....and I'll blame my wifey for this one cause she's not watching, but after she drove my rig once I was convinced she had taken 5 years off the clutch life! So for about 3-4 times over about 4 years, I got smart & chopped & added about 3/16" to the slave cyl shaft that works the clutch arm.
Turned out to be all the wear & slack up under the dash....last year that potmetal bracket was about $55-60 from Ford & about 3-4 days for me....and I did the Heim Joint mod at same time.
And of course, while I was under there, I had to fix & redesign bunches of other stuff that I decided Ford had mis-designed...

Your shifting difficulties and low pedal are almost certainly due to worn linkage. The Heim joint mod is a great suggestion. I couldn't find a Heim joint locally, but found a 3/8" ID x 1/2" OD bronze bushing at Tractor Supply that fit perfectly into the master cylinder rod loop and combined with a 3/8" dia. bolt instead of the welded-in pin works great. I also had to replace the aluminum housing on mine as the hole nearest the clutch pedal was worn out. My transmission shifts great now and the clutch engagement/disengagement is now several inches above the floor.

So last night I was working on the truck (figured the rag joint was giving me steering play but ended up being the sector screw adjustment as the rag joint didn't have any play) and got to get a light up under the dash and spend some time with her. Seems like I couldn't see any plastic bushing on the clutch master cylinder rod, couple this with what you guys are saying and I think I'll work on finding a heim joint, hope I can find one out and about rather than ordering online (any tips on stores that have them?). I'll give that a try first and we'll see if that takes care of my excessive pedal, it's definitely worth a shot Anyone willing to make one for me as I have no drill or tap? I'd throw some money your way for labor

ttman4, would you mind elaborating on the "improvements you made under the dash? While I'm down there I might as well get it all done, I'm sure other members would be interested as well

Another thing I did was put 5 qt of 40wt engine oil along with a full gal of PowerPunch additive in my ZF5. Quietened the tranny roar down lots, makes it harder to shift in cold/cool weather till it's warmed up some, & made it lots & lots easier to shift without the clutch. (I tend to shift mine most of the time without clutch use)
To get over 2gal in there, I pulled the shift stick & I poured it in thru top tower. I never found a tranny vent, so I also poked 2 icepick holes for vents/pressure relief thru the rubber boot on shift tower.

I've heard 30wt recommended for the SMF swap, would that be a good place to start with? I'm thinking doing the heim joint mod and refilling the fluid with 30wt (or 40wt?) may be a good start. Would 30wt potentially take care of the washing machine noise I'm getting in neutral with the clutch disengaged (pedal un-depressed)?

Good call Bob F, but there are also two other possibilities that will result in the same symptoms.

One is a TOB fork and pressure plate fingers that are worn due to a dragging TOB.

Another is firewall flex/cracking.

While I was under there I pressed the clutch in with my hands and tried to spy any flexing or any cracks that I could see, I couldn't see any...but being an '89 I'd say it's a prime suspect for that. So should I go out and get a small kit and put it on there just to make sure, or would it do anything if I already have some flex (can't see any)? I'm guessing that's a Ford only item. How hard is it to install?

I cant really say anything about your tranny issues. But I can say that 3800 rpms is way high, unless you have a modded pump, and then I would only suggest you go that high if you get your entire rotating assembly balanced to perfection. I would say that 2400-2900 rpms are your best pulling rpm's when your going up a hill, and if you have a turbo or not. To me my truck feels like it starts de-fueling at around 3000 rpm's, but I bet its just because I dont have enough o2 because at around 3000 rpm's my truck starts spewing out the grayish-black smoke. Any stock pump should have a set redline at 3300 rpms if I remember right.

I thought 3300rpms sounded super high for me, coulda been a typo I guess and they meant 2300rpms...that sounds better. Most all of my driving is between 1800 - 2300 rpms.

Thanks for the continued help all

[Edit] On edit, reading a little more I remember seeing a little nut on the master cylinder rod when I was looking last night...think maybe I've got an adjustable rod like this? So would I be lucky enough to maybe just be able to adjust it out?

 

[payableondeath6]

I ordered the small firewall repair kit through the local dealer. Will work on getting the last bit of slack out of the steering and adjusting the master cylinder rod tomorrow.

Any idea if switching the ATF to 30wt or higher would take care of the washing machine noise I'm experiencing? If anyone thinks it might, it would be worth a shot to hold off on the Luk kit a little longer, or at least until I get things figured out with what I'm doing with the IP.

 

[Ceejmo]

See the Heim Joint Mod with photos.

 

[payableondeath6]

See the Heim Joint Mod with photos.

Thanks, already got that on hand in case the rod doesn't adjust enough

Still curious on changing the weight of the oil?

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

.....Still curious on changing the weight of the oil?

Yeah heavier oil will help, but I'd recomment using synthetic. I've read that the sulfur in dino juice is ******* the brass of tranny syncros. I used 10W30 synthetic, but I'm seriously thinking of using 15W50.

Overfilling it will help more than anything. I overfilled mine 2 quarts and am probably going to add at least one more quart. To overfill it by this much you have to remove the baseplate & boot around the shifter and pour it directly in the shifting tower....

 

[payableondeath6]

Yeah heavier oil will help, but I'd recomment using synthetic. I've read that the sulfur in dino juice is ******* the brass of tranny syncros. I used 10W30 synthetic, but I'm seriously thinking of using 15W50.

Overfilling it will help more than anything. I overfilled mine 2 quarts and am probably going to add at least one more quart. To overfill it by this much you have to remove the baseplate & boot around the shifter and pour it directly in the shifting tower....

OK, thanks I'll do a search and see how much I need to get and give that a shot here soon.

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

OK, thanks I'll do a search and see how much I need to get and give that a shot here soon.

OOPS! Sorry, I guess saying overfill it doesn't help much if I don't say how much it takes huh?

Filling it through the fill plug on the side mine took right at 1 gallon. Then I added a couple of quarts through the shifter opening, so I put a total of 6 quarts in it.

 

[payableondeath6]

OOPS! Sorry, I guess saying overfill it doesn't help much if I don't say how much it takes huh?

Filling it through the fill plug on the side mine took right at 1 gallon. Then I added a couple of quarts through the shifter opening, so I put a total of 6 quarts in it.

lol...thanks. Your sig says you have a T-19, if so we've probably got different capacities...maybe? I'm sure my Haynes will tell me when I get home. Is 30wt heavier or lighter than what you're using?

 

[BROWNIEBOY525]

he just swaped in a zf 5

 

[payableondeath6]

he just swaped in a zf 5

thought i remembered reading that, couldn't remember if it was the same guy or not. thanks.

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

he just swaped in a zf 5

Yup, sure did. Guess its time to edit my sig, huh?

 

[payableondeath6]

I bought a big 2 gallon jug of SAE40 from Tractor Supply , got the small repair kit from Ford, and trying to pick up a clutch master cylinder bushing from Ford today.

Can I just drain the tranny through the plug, replace the plug and then refill all through the gear shifter hole? Will I be able to see the level or when should I know when to quit pouring? I'm sure 2 gallons will be enough.

I'm hoping that a combination of all of these things will fix my problems, but if not I'm thinking a Lucky mod and one of these ought to

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

I bought a big 2 gallon jug of SAE40 from Tractor Supply , got the small repair kit from Ford, and trying to pick up a clutch master cylinder bushing from Ford today.

Can I just drain the tranny through the plug, replace the plug and then refill all through the gear shifter hole? Will I be able to see the level or when should I know when to quit pouring? I'm sure 2 gallons will be enough.

I'm hoping that a combination of all of these things will fix my problems, but if not I'm thinking a Lucky mod and one of these ought to

Just drain the tranny through the bottom plug, put the plug back in, and refill it. It will take the full 2 gallons no problem. There really isn't a way to see how full it is getting when you fill it through the shifter, but that's OK. You are trying to over-fill it. I used synthetic in mine due to having read that the sulfur in dino juice is bad for all the brass parts in trannys. I chose 15-W-50 because it has the viscocity of thin 15 weight when it is cool and the viscocity of thicker 50 weight when it is hot.

As for the Hayes clutch kits, I don't think any of those will work for you unless you already have (or buy) their flywheel. The first two with the springs in the hubs won't fit the standard SMF or DMF flywheel - they are the wrong bolt pattern (8-bolt instead of 6-bolt) and will only fit flyweels that are designed for 13" or 12-1/4" pressure plates.

The 3rd one on that page is a solid disk, which will only work with a DMF that hasn't been modified - not one that has been converted to SMF by the Lucky Mod method.

 

[payableondeath6]

I used synthetic in mine due to having read that the sulfur in dino juice is bad for all the brass parts in trannys. I chose 15-W-50 because it has the viscocity of thin 15 weight when it is cool and the viscocity of thicker 50 weight when it is hot.

I looked for synthetic b/c of you saying that, but wasn't sure how the weights compared to the SAE30 or SAE40. Now that you explain it like that I think I'll take it back and get some sythetic 15W50, that sounds like the winning combo

As for the Hayes clutch kits, I don't think any of those will work for you unless you already have (or buy) their flywheel. The first two with the springs in the hubs won't fit the standard SMF or DMF flywheel - they are the wrong bolt pattern (8-bolt instead of 6-bolt) and will only fit flyweels that are designed for 13" or 12-1/4" pressure plates.

The 3rd one on that page is a solid disk, which will only work with a DMF that hasn't been modified - not one that has been converted to SMF by the Lucky Mod method.

Dang, I knew the first two wouldn't work, but I thought that the Lucky modded DMF allowed you to use the stock clutch?

All this which can I use and which can't I has been kind of confusing me I guess, maybe when the time comes I'll just eat some of the extra cost and just do the whole Luk kit (only $500 shipped to me) Can I use that Hayes clutch kit with the SMF you listed from Advanced Auto Parts? That would give me everything for $370 instead of $500 and a heavy duty clutch.