ZF 5 help/questions

[Double-S-Diesel]

the washimng machine sound is the flywheel.
get a clutch from tom and get a fork while your at it, possibly even a slave cylinder.
once you do the clutch there is no need for the hein joint mod as the pedal pressure will be light as a feather,

as for the lucky mod, sorry but I dont recommend it, especially when you accually need a disc and pressure plate anyhow. adding the cost of a flywheel adds some $$$, but it sure as hell beets doin ity 2x..
also I have heard a truck with this mod, sounds like the trans is gonna fall out.

another thing to check is the clutch/brake pedal hangert thy are known to break by the steering column, also I had to replace the one in the 88 truck.

I have used mercv trans fluid and synthetic and have not seen any differences. never have and never will use motor oil .

 

[Agnem]

Go to a marine supply place, and get one of those lower unit gear lube filling tools. Stick the tool in a rubber plug, and you can put the 2 gallons in through the fill hole and not have to mess with the top cover.

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

I looked for synthetic b/c of you saying that, but wasn't sure how the weights compared to the SAE30 or SAE40. Now that you explain it like that I think I'll take it back and get some sythetic 15W50, that sounds like the winning combo

Some folks don't seem to like the idea of using motor oil, but my thinking is that at cold temps the 15W50 is going to be as thin or thinner than the ATF, but at the higher temps it will be thicker than ATF. Should still be plenty thin enough though, 'cause even 50 weight gets pretty thin at 100 degrees.

Dang, I knew the first two wouldn't work, but I thought that the Lucky modded DMF allowed you to use the stock clutch?

Nope, with the lucky mod you are converting your DMF into an SMF by bolting the two plates together. That eliminates the shock dampening action of th springs, so you need a clutch disk with springs instead.

All this which can I use and which can't I has been kind of confusing me I guess, maybe when the time comes I'll just eat some of the extra cost and just do the whole Luk kit (only $500 shipped to me)

That's OK, if you are willing to spend an extra $300 for it initially PLUS an extra $150-$200 if you ever need to do it again - because once you use their flywheel, you're stuck buying replacement clutch disks and pressure plated from them - 'cause as I understand it, only their parts will fit their custom flywheel.

Can I use that Hayes clutch kit with the SMF you listed from Advanced Auto Parts? That would give me everything for $370 instead of $500 and a heavy duty clutch.

Nope, the PartsAmerica flywheel is a stock unit drilled for the 6-bolt pattern (2 bolts in 3 places) and the Hayes is an 8-bolt (2 bolts in 4 places). It takes a custom flywheel to use the Hayes pressure plate.

While the 12" clutch would be a nice upgrade, I just don't see it being worth 2-1/2 to 3 times the price. The 11" is the factory standard clutch and I haven't seen anyone complaining about them not holding up well....

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

Go to a marine supply place, and get one of those lower unit gear lube filling tools. Stick the tool in a rubber plug, and you can put the 2 gallons in through the fill hole and not have to mess with the top cover.

That's a pretty good idea. I already had the boot unbolted from the floor when I did mine, so pulling the 4 little 5/16" cap screws to remove the shifter was no big deal....

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

the washimng machine sound is the flywheel.

Not trying to be argumentative, but if you are talking about the the noise you get after converting to a SMF with the ZF, then the noise is DUE to the change in flywheels, but it isn't actually the flywheel that makes the noise. Without the springs in the DMF to absorb the "power spikes" from each cylinder firing the spikes get transmitted directly to the input shaft and make all the gears inside the tranny rotate back & forth on their shafts. It is that rotating backwards and forwards, hitting the forwards and backwards limits of their gear lash, that is what makes the noise you hear. At least that's my understanding. That is why it is called "gear rollover" noise.

get a clutch from tom and get a fork while your at it, possibly even a slave cylinder.

Agreed - if they show any significant signs of wear. The fork that came with my ZF and the slave that was on myT-19 looked and worked fine - so I reused them.

once you do the clutch there is no need for the hein joint mod as the pedal pressure will be light as a feather,

Also agreed - at least the part about the clutch being really light. Mine takes less than half the pedal effort it did before to make it operate.

as for the lucky mod, sorry but I dont recommend it, especially when you accually need a disc and pressure plate anyhow. adding the cost of a flywheel adds some $$$, but it sure as hell beets doin it 2x..
also I have heard a truck with this mod, sounds like the trans is gonna fall out.

I haven't ever heard one with the Lucky mod, so I can't say whether it is better or worse than the SMF. I was going to do the Lucky mod myself, until I found out that both DMF & SMF have the same pressure plate bolt pattern and I could "mix & match" components from AutoZone.com to make up my own kit. At that point I decided it wasn't worth the effort and potential problems to do the Lucky mod. I can tell you that when I first did the swap, before over filled it with 15W50, I just filled it up to the fill plug with 10W40 synthetic and it didn't sound very good. "Washing machine full of marbles" would be a good description of how it sounded.

another thing to check is the clutch/brake pedal hangert thy are known to break by the steering column, also I had to replace the one in the 88 truck.

Mine didn't have this problem

I have used mercv trans fluid and synthetic and have not seen any differences. never have and never will use motor oil .

Well, since ATF is just light weight oil with a high-end detergent package in it (to keep the hydraulics in an automatic clean), the idea of using motor oil in mine doesn't faze me. On the other hand, I have seen pictures of what high sulfur content petroleum oil can do to some brass alloys in transmissions. I figured that is why the sticker on the side of the ZF specifically says to use synthetic. All that considered PLUS the fact that the ZF without a DMF is so prone to gear rollover noise is why I chose the15W50 synthetic. It seems to be working, but I guess we'll see how it does in the long run...

 

[payableondeath6]

Nope, the PartsAmerica flywheel is a stock unit drilled for the 6-bolt pattern (2 bolts in 3 places) and the Hayes is an 8-bolt (2 bolts in 4 places). It takes a custom flywheel to use the Hayes pressure plate.

While the 12" clutch would be a nice upgrade, I just don't see it being worth 2-1/2 to 3 times the price. The 11" is the factory standard clutch and I haven't seen anyone complaining about them not holding up well....

Well heck, I just can't seem to put together a winning combo Guess I just liked the idea of buying a "kit" so I made sure I was getting everything since I'm just learning all the parts/pieces.

Just a thought here...the previous owner owned the truck for the last 10 years and he's who kept all the record on it, so that means from 1989-1997 someone else owned it (and wrecked it)...is it possible that owner changed over to a SMF and I'm hearing the "gear rollover" associated? IDK, the noise seems to get pretty loud and bad sounding if I just leave it (don't have the nerve to leave it long) but I also don't know what this "gear rollover" should sound like. My truck doesn't have the cover on it that goes over the bottom of the flywheel (something to pick up from a junkyard I guess) and I was just wondering is there anyway that I could visually tell if it's SMF or DMF through there?

I think since basically I'm just wanting someone to hold my hand and lead me through this purchase I'm just going to go with what Cheaper Jeeper's parts list was when he did his. I've heard some mention that I may want to replace the clutch slave cylinder and clutch fork, is there anyway to inspect these or are they simply something you replace with every clutch job? Here and Here

And finally, for now , Cheaper Jeeper, how are you liking your setup? Any problems? Any parts you wish you would've got something better quality or different?

Thanks all

 

[Agnem]

I picked up a bad DMF last night, and am going to rebuild it into a Lucky Mod conversion for anybody that wants one.

 

[Double-S-Diesel]

I am assuming the washing machine sound he hears is an out of balance thump noise at idle.
as for the gear rollover , I got it bad in my 96 at low speeds in 2nd, but then again it is an original 88 s-42 with 250k on it,
Nick

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

Well heck, I just can't seem to put together a winning combo Guess I just liked the idea of buying a "kit" so I made sure I was getting everything since I'm just learning all the parts/pieces.....I think since basically I'm just wanting someone to hold my hand and lead me through this purchase I'm just going to go with what Cheaper Jeeper's parts list was when he did his.....

Trust me, I did a LOT of research to come up with that parts list, and it was a real PITA. That's why I shared it with everyone - so you don't have to try to re-invent the wheel

Other than the clutch disk, pressure plate, and throwout bearing, the only other parts you are SURE to need are the pilot bearing, and the clutch alignment tool. Those can be bought cheaply and easily enough anywhere.

Just a thought here...the previous owner owned the truck for the last 10 years and he's who kept all the record on it, so that means from 1989-1997 someone else owned it (and wrecked it)...is it possible that owner changed over to a SMF and I'm hearing the "gear rollover" associated? IDK, the noise seems to get pretty loud and bad sounding if I just leave it (don't have the nerve to leave it long) but I also don't know what this "gear rollover" should sound like. My truck doesn't have the cover on it that goes over the bottom of the flywheel (something to pick up from a junkyard I guess) and I was just wondering is there anyway that I could visually tell if it's SMF or DMF through there?

Yeah, you can tell pretty easily. Take a look up through the inspection cover at where the pressure plate is bolted to the flywheel. If the flywheel looks like two separate plates back to back - one that the pressure plate is bolted to and one that has the teeth around the outer edge to engage with the starter - then it is a DMF. If it looks like one single plate with the pressure plate bolted onto it and teeth around the outside edge to engage with the starter, then it is a SMF.

If you have an SMF, what you're hearing is probably gear rollover. If you have a DMF, then what you're hearing is almost certainly the DMF coming apart.

I've heard some mention that I may want to replace the clutch slave cylinder and clutch fork, is there anyway to inspect these or are they simply something you replace with every clutch job? Here and Here

You can inspect the fork once you get the tranny out. Look at where it touches the throwout bearing - that is where it will show the most wear. The slave cylinder can be inspected before the tranny comes out just by laying under the truck and watching it while someone works the clutch.

And finally, for now , Cheaper Jeeper, how are you liking your setup? Any problems? Any parts you wish you would've got something better quality or different?

Thanks all

So far so good - but I haven't driven it that much yet....

 

[payableondeath6]

Trust me, I did a LOT of research to come up with that parts list, and it was a real PITA. That's why I shared it with everyone - so you don't have to try to re-invent the wheel

That's what I figured Looks like if I end up having to get a slave and fork I'd be right around $400 and have nearly everything replaced, and right at $335 without the slave and fork. I know I for one appreciate the list, especially with all the crap I don't know about like that Jegs clutch that has to have a custom flywheel

Yeah, you can tell pretty easily. Take a look up through the inspection cover at where the pressure plate is bolted to the flywheel. If the flywheel looks like two separate plates back to back - one that the pressure plate is bolted to and one that has the teeth around the outer edge to engage with the starter - then it is a DMF. If it looks like one single plate with the pressure plate bolted onto it and teeth around the outside edge to engage with the starter, then it is a SMF.

If you have an SMF, what you're hearing is probably gear rollover. If you have a DMF, then what you're hearing is almost certainly the DMF coming apart.

Great, I'll take a look here this evening when I get home from work. I'm betting I've got a DMF though, I couldn't see that noise being something considered OK

You can inspect the fork once you get the tranny out. Look at where it touches the throwout bearing - that is where it will show the most wear. The slave cylinder can be inspected before the tranny comes out just by laying under the truck and watching it while someone works the clutch.

I'll check the slave here tonight while I look to see whether it's a DM or SM flywheel. Anything in particular I should be looking for or just free unbinding travel with not leaks or anything?

Thanks again.

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

....I'll check the slave here tonight while I look to see whether it's a DM or SM flywheel. Anything in particular I should be looking for or just free unbinding travel with not leaks or anything?

That's pretty much it. They either hold fluid & work smoothly or you replace 'em....

 

[payableondeath6]

Go to a marine supply place, and get one of those lower unit gear lube filling tools. Stick the tool in a rubber plug, and you can put the 2 gallons in through the fill hole and not have to mess with the top cover.

Where can I get a suitable rubber plug? Hardware store have them maybe? Any idea what size to get? I bought a little hand pump that screws onto the top of the bottle but the nozzle doesn't fit snugly enough to overfill it, only got a little over a gallon in there last night.

Tried to take the top cover off the day before and I wasn't able to, the passenger side bolts where easy to get to but the driver's side ones were impossible...almost like the transmission was tilted over or something So I think the rubber plug will work best.

Also, I'll just have to post a pic of the flywheel setup. After looking at it it wasn't easily identifiable as two seperate plates, but I think it looked that way.

 

[Agnem]

Yea I got the rubber plug at the hardware store, in one of those specialty hardware drawers. They are cheap, so just buy an assortment of what looks like it may fit.

 

[ttman4]

Clutches, slavecylinders,mods, & other things of great importance...

Pay, & you other guys, I missed this thread for several days....been busy with EJ....Emily Jane....the wifey's 6 mo old granddaughter. She's the wifey's because I'm still not old enough to be a grandpa!! But I must say, & everybody told me so, when DIL, Amanda & EJ hit town, those everwatchful BIG BLUE EYES melted this 'ol black heart of mine somehow!!! sshhh grandpa sshhhhh, had to take over
Mel, I couldn't help myself. I had to slip that one in You guys don't slap me round & send me to the basement yet.....I'll go stand in the corner...& chant 300 times, I won't, I won't, I won't no'mo. OK?

Now the rest of the story.....
First off, FYI, if you have your tran & clutch/flywheel apart & somehow your slave cyl. is still hooked up, but not attached, DO NOT mash your clutch peddle. Don't ask how I know, but I been told that if you do, the end will blow off your slave cyl. to tune of about $80 plus US IIRC....ggrrrrrr

Mine was originally an 11" clutch. If I had done the "Lucky Mod" & used my flywheel I would have had to go back with an 11". I saved all my "stuff" & still plan to do a LuckyMod later on. Too many of my local close friends & pals got too many Neg. Vibes....too many said I was stupid, dumb, can't be done....that just makes me want'a do it for spite!!

Go to a marine supply place, and get one of those lower unit gear lube filling tools. Stick the tool in a rubber plug, and you can put the 2 gallons in through the fill hole and not have to mess with the top cover.

Mel I'm not a motorboat guy, so I'll have to find out what that thing is. The rubber plug....do it stay in tran. fill hole? Or do you fill'er up, then pull rubber plug & then screw reg plug back in with great speed before stuff runs out on your face?

As far as pulling top plate off tran top to pull stick so oil can be poured/dribbled in, be ready to loose skin & bleed some. Mine has a 4" body lift & I still had he** getting those 4 (allen head IIRC) screws out & back in. My black heart made me say lots dirty words!!!
I also been kinda nervous about my fill level....not really knowing how much I've leaked. Mine leaks bumper to bumper....

My oil I use..... My tran has a gizillion miles on it. Few years ago I got to getting stick roar & growl at low rpm in 5th, then 4th. I was still using syn. ATF. I started adding 1-2 cans of STP. This quieted things down lots, made it smoother to shift, but made it hard to shift cold.
Couple years later I went to 30 wt engine oil w/STP, then 40 wt. When I did my clutch & SMF last year I went to 40 wt engine with that PowerPunch.

The "rollover" noise is tran., as Cheaper Jeeper said, resonating from the diesel engine injection knock, thru SMF that has no dampening ability, into tran. gears.
Mine sounds like those old early '50 rigs that had straight cut gears or whatever. Growls & roars & vibrates up to 1000-1100RPM. My main prob. is my 4:10 especially in reverse, 2x especially loaded. Jerks, jumps,

BTW, a local diesel shop teacher told me that that "diesel knock" noise we hear in diesel engines really isn't the cyl. etc knocking, but instead is the harmonic balancer doing the knock, or taking the knock & vibration.
(I don't care what it is, I still like it!)

I found 3 "Brownie" (Brown-Lipe) trans. that I need to find out the scoop on from some source, tear into to ck out. All 3 are under, dir., OD. I'm gonna pick one & mount it. That will solve my "loaded untracking" problems.

I heard both ways about engine oil in there...pro/con....validity both ways too I think.
Again, I think this is personal preference. Way I see mine....My tran is on about it's 4th life & not been into yet....time bomb waiting to happen right under my butt when she shells though!!

The Heim Joint mod may or maynot have helped me.....didn't hurt, & another thing I just had to try! I don't remember for sure if the clutch master cyl had a nylon bushing or not....seems like it did.

The pot metal aluminum bracket from Ford for about $55-$60 that clutch & brake peddle shafts work on/thru did me as much good as anything. It had thin nylon bushings (about 1") that had worn out & egg shaped bigtime! When I looked at the new bracket & bushings I decided it was another wearout again soon item so I did some homegrown tigging & built the thin places up, turned the bushing/shaft holes & found some brass replacement bushings for clutch/brake peddle shafts & tubes to work thru. I also drilled & put grease zert in outer tube to give occasional grease shot.
I didn't ever plan on doing this standing on head under dash job again.....blood runs to my head & I get stupid!!

The DMF can be ck'ed for play by prying back & forth the 2 sections. IIRC 3/4" max movement is limits.....mine had over 1 1/2"....Think I don't live on the edge??

Thru the years I had my flywheel resurfaced 2 times....I don't recall the limits this can be done. I also had mine out couple more times & put back without resurfacing. Everytime I had it out it had warpage & heat spots on it. Seemed to work just as well whether I resurfaced or not.
I think this would be a personal choice. Resurfacing is probably the best. As much as I've abused mine thru the years it a wonder anything made it thru warranty!
I've also been told by couple mechanics that if the flywheel is resurfaced very much, then shims (that's supposed to be available) in .000(thousands) need to be added between crank & flywheel to bring FW & clutch back to near original position. If too much shimming, then starter drive/ring gear start getting funny..... I suspect hyd clutch makes up lots for turning FW.

My firewall wasn't flexing or broke where clutch & brakes flex it. But I looked at Ford's small & big firewall kit. Then went home & built my own kit & installed it for future firewall breakage.
However, where my E-brake bracket bolted to the firewall way over to left, the firewall had broken. I fab'ed plates/brackets & bolted thru firewall, then remounted the E-brake bracket. Made it really strong.

My clutch usage....I've always tended to not use mine much. Especially if loaded heavy. I like to ease it out of gear, then go to next & then maybe tap the clutch, if at all. This seems to take the hi torque away from clutching under a load or hard pull.
However, I speedshift with clutches & everything else I got when outrunning red & blue lites........

Well, I see EJ is awake....gotta run!

 

[Agnem]

Mel I'm not a motorboat guy, so I'll have to find out what that thing is. The rubber plug....do it stay in tran. fill hole? Or do you fill'er up, then pull rubber plug & then screw reg plug back in with great speed before stuff runs out on your face? ...

yes. That's how you do it. Use the "Bottle Pump".