ZF 5 help/questions

[payableondeath6]

This truck'll make my 3rd manual tranny that I've owned but so far all have been different so I don't really have any experience with them. 1962 Studebaker Lark 3 spd column shift, 1990 Eagle Talon 5 spd floor, and now the 1989 F350 ZF 5 spd floor with dual mass flywheel (DMF). I've never done ANY work on either of the two prior manuals I owned so I've got no experience with them at all.

Just FYI this truck has 120k on it and the previous owner said nothing had been done to the transmission.

First off I'm getting a couple different noises:

~The first noise I noticed is something that can best be described as a washing machine out of balance (that thud-a-thud rhythmic noise), this happens with the truck in neutral and the clutch (engaged, pedal released)...doesn't always happen but will usually happen if I let it idle that way for 30 seconds - minute and clears up with depressing the clutch. From what I've read this sounds like the beginning of failure of the dual mass flywheel (DMF) and can be corrected by a new DMF, making the DMF into a single mass flywheel (SMF) or switching to a SMF. Sound about right to anybody?

~The second noise is a rattling type noise that happens at idle with the clutch depressed (disengaged) and will clear up with a little of the accelerator pedal. This I've got no idea about and am assuming the DMF is to blame here as well, or maybe something is not letting the clutch fully disengage.

I've also got some symptoms:

~I've got two gears that I can't get into unless the clutch is fully depressed all the way to the floor, 1st and Reverse. I'm assuming this is something that would be taken care of with the components of a "clutch kit", but I don't know.

~Also seems like it takes a lot of pedal to switch gears while driving, I don't know if this is just because I'm comparing it to a car or whether I've got a worn clutch.

So I'm looking for a couple things from you guys.

~Does it seem like I'm on the right track and a "clutch kit" and doing something with the flywheel would take care of my problems?

~I can go with an OEM clutch kit and do some work (drilling out holes, bolting plates together, etc) to make the DMF into a SMF for $185 OR I can go with the Luk SMF conversion that comes with a new flywheel and clutch kit for $575. I'm willing to shell out some extra to make up for not having to work on the flywheel to convert it so that makes up some of the price difference, but is there a big difference between an OEM clutch and a Luk clutch? What's the difference? Since this things a worker I'm all about upgrading it more heavy duty and if there's a big difference it would make the cost difference negligible.

~How difficult is replacing a clutch (seems pretty straight-forward but I've never done one)? I'll likely be doing it myself and will have all sorts of tools (probably have to buy a HF tranny jack) courtesy of my wife's uncle's garage, only help I'll have is his (old man) direction and my Haynes manual. I told my dad that I was going to have to do my first clutch/flywheel job and his reply to me was "Don't worry about the first transmission, clutch, flywheel job---it's a FORD you'll have plenty of time to get good at them"...yeah, THANKS 'Bout the same amount of help I got with the water pump on that Talon (crappy Mits/Dodge) in the middle of winter when the only tools I had were a hammer and crescent wrench...and an apt. complex parking lot But oh well, that's a whole other mess.

Thanks for all the help/tips/direction. Sorry for all the questions.

Also, I'm usually maxing out the RPMs at 2400 b/c it sounds wound out then, but I heard on here saying keep RPMs up around 3800 when towing a load up a grade That's seems like I'd really be screaming then, am I just being from being used to driving/listening to gassers all this time? Just curious.

 

[Double-S-Diesel]

sounds like the dual mass is bad.
the not going into gears is a sign of a bad clutch and pressure plate.
do it once and do it right, buy a LUK kit and dont look back.
2 wd isnt as bad to change as a 4x4 is.
Nick

 

[payableondeath6]

sounds like the dual mass is bad.
the not going into gears is a sign of a bad clutch and pressure plate.
do it once and do it right, buy a LUK kit and dont look back.
2 wd isnt as bad to change as a 4x4 is.
Nick

So you'd recommend the Luk SMF kit over the Lucky mod and OEM clutch? Just wondering if there are any gains/advantages of the Luk over the OEM? Like I said the time/effort savings of not having to take the flywheel all apart and drill out the holes offsets a good bit of cost for me, but I was just curious about other gains/advantages.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Wanderer-rrorc]

the first noise might be the throwought bearing or pilot bearing...(or something else) but with it quiting as soon as you apply the clutch its probably the throwout bearing (makes noise when not under pressure)

as for taking alot of pedal...IIRC the ZF is a non syncro tranny...they dont recomend shifting without the clutch for this reason..(and it almost NEVER works either...I've been drivin ford manuals for years..and this one will not shift without the clutch...)..

I would pull the tranny and change the clutch and inspect all the parts that come out...I bet ya find some damaged goods...

as far as re-installing it...get 2 pieces of 1/2in allthread or solid round stock about 6in long..put them in the tranny mount holes (where the bolts go) on each side...alighn the tranny to the same holes with the allthread/roundstock...and slide it right on in!!..works sweet...no wrestlin with it around..it ligns up perfect...and if it doesnt go in initally..spin the input shaft a little to align the splines up...

in and out with clutch change in 4hrs with air tools...on a 4wd...2wd prolly 2hrs...

oh...and powerwash the bottom of your truck before ya do it..keeps some of the mess outta your eyes...

 

[payableondeath6]

the first noise might be the throwought bearing or pilot bearing...(or something else) but with it quiting as soon as you apply the clutch its probably the throwout bearing (makes noise when not under pressure)

as for taking alot of pedal...IIRC the ZF is a non syncro tranny...they dont recomend shifting without the clutch for this reason..(and it almost NEVER works either...I've been drivin ford manuals for years..and this one will not shift without the clutch...)..

I would pull the tranny and change the clutch and inspect all the parts that come out...I bet ya find some damaged goods...

as far as re-installing it...get 2 pieces of 1/2in allthread or solid round stock about 6in long..put them in the tranny mount holes (where the bolts go) on each side...alighn the tranny to the same holes with the allthread/roundstock...and slide it right on in!!..works sweet...no wrestlin with it around..it ligns up perfect...and if it doesnt go in initally..spin the input shaft a little to align the splines up...

in and out with clutch change in 4hrs with air tools...on a 4wd...2wd prolly 2hrs...

oh...and powerwash the bottom of your truck before ya do it..keeps some of the mess outta your eyes...

Thanks for the tips on the allthread and powerwashing...good ideas

2 hrs... Can I pay you in pizza and beer to come up and do it? I'm sure I'll take longer than two hours, with access to air tools and 2wd and all...I can't seem to work on anything quickly, things always go wrong

 

[kcw12]

the truck not wanting to into reverse is normal, me and a few friend have the zfs in our trucks and well they dont like going into reverse

and lots of pedal is normal too, when i first got mine i had about to push it all the way to the floor, but i got used to it

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

I pretty much agree with the diagnosis that others have given you.

I looked at the Luk kit and it seems like a really good one-stop solution. Kinda pricey though.

I did a bunch of research and here's what I came up with as an alternative....

From PartsAmerica.com (Schucks/Checker/Kragen stores) you can order yourself a SMF flywheel for $35 + $115 core charge (since you don't have a SMF core to give them) Total cost - $150
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=SFW&MfrPartNumber=721&PartType=267&PTSet=A

Then you can go to Autozone.com and order
* Clutch disk part # CP31103A - it is splined for the ZF shaft (1-1/4") and has the springs in the hub
(the "A" on the end of the part # is for Anti-vibration = springs in hub) $74.99

* Pressure plate part # CA31055 - this is the deeper one for the SMF - $67.99

* Throwout bearing part # 614062 - this has the big center bore for the ZF but you want to be sure you look at it and make sure the face profile is the flat one that is compatible with the release fingers on the SMF pressure plate - $27.99

* Pilot bearing (if the flywheel doesn't come with one) part # FC65662 - $13.99

Basically assemble your own Luk kit for $335 instead of paying $575 for the pre-assembled kit. Another good thing about this approach is that when you need to do repairs in the future, you can replace the clutch & pressure plate with off-the-shelf components for $175. With the Luk kit you have to buy their custom kit to do repairs and the clutch & pressure plate cost $350.

That's what I did and I expect to have it back on the road the next couple of days.

 

[payableondeath6]

Basically assemble your own Luk kit for $335 instead of paying $575 for the pre-assembled kit. Another good thing about this approach is that when you need to do repairs in the future, you can replace the clutch & pressure plate with off-the-shelf components for $175. With the Luk kit you have to buy their custom kit to do repairs and the clutch & pressure plate cost $350.

That's what I did and I expect to have it back on the road the next couple of days.

I just spoke with Tom from Carolina Clutch and he was able to give me a HECK of a deal, even beat a local place that sells Luk when you take into account sales tax.

Anything else I should get other than the clutch kit and the SMF? Idk what all would be nice to repair while I'm in there that doesn't come with the kit, but I want to do this ONCE and do it RIGHT

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

I just spoke with Tom from Carolina Clutch and he was able to give me a HECK of a deal, even beat a local place that sells Luk when you take into account sales tax.

Anything else I should get other than the clutch kit and the SMF? Idk what all would be nice to repair while I'm in there that doesn't come with the kit, but I want to do this ONCE and do it RIGHT

Thanks,
Matt

Nah, the kit should come with all the above plus a clutch alignment tool.

So what kinda' smokin' deal did he give you?

 

[ttman4]

Heim joint??

~I've got two gears that I can't get into unless the clutch is fully depressed all the way to the floor, 1st and Reverse.

~Also seems like it takes a lot of pedal to switch gears while driving,

I assume you have a hyd. clutch?
Someone else may have already brought this up, but as I skimmed down thru the responses to this thread I may have missed it already.
Have you checked your wear & slack in the clutch/brake pedals under the dash. Some wear & slack there in the aluminum/pot-metal bracket & bushings that the pedals & shafts work on/thru can cause symptoms like a wore out clutch, making it to where you have to push the pedal nearly thru the floorboard to get into gear..., making some gears harder to shift than others, as well as making shifting harder. The clutch hyd master cyl shaft won't push in far enough.

For thoughts & tips....and I'll blame my wifey for this one cause she's not watching, but after she drove my rig once I was convinced she had taken 5 years off the clutch life! So for about 3-4 times over about 4 years, I got smart & chopped & added about 3/16" to the slave cyl shaft that works the clutch arm.
Turned out to be all the wear & slack up under the dash....last year that potmetal bracket was about $55-60 from Ford & about 3-4 days for me....and I did the Heim Joint mod at same time.
And of course, while I was under there, I had to fix & redesign bunches of other stuff that I decided Ford had mis-designed....

Then last fall I was playing with my inj. pump....turned her up a bunch more for sh**s & giggles. About 3 mi into my test run the clutch went to slipping big time!

I started out to do the "Lucky Mod" on my 11" clutch/DMF setup. Instead, a friend gave me a nearly new(<4 mo) NAPA SMF & clutch/pressure plate kit he had installed, then wrecked.
I must say, I DO NOT like it at all! Especially in reverse, this thing jerks & bucks like it is about to throw the driveline thru my butt!

Another thing I did was put 5 qt of 40wt engine oil along with a full gal of PowerPunch additive in my ZF5. Quietened the tranny roar down lots, makes it harder to shift in cold/cool weather till it's warmed up some, & made it lots & lots easier to shift without the clutch. (I tend to shift mine most of the time without clutch use)
To get over 2gal in there, I pulled the shift stick & I poured it in thru top tower. I never found a tranny vent, so I also poked 2 icepick holes for vents/pressure relief thru the rubber boot on shift tower.

I still get lots of "roll-over" noise in any gear up to about 1000-1100RPM.

As far as RPM's & pulling....I think mine will only "hi-idle" about 3400RPM. & when I'm working it I usually work it between 2200 & 2800. Probably not set right, but mine has always started falling off above 2800-2900....power curve starts dropping.

Anyway, just couple of thoughts & 2cents from me....

 

[subway]

nice info cheeper jeeper, i will have to keep that in mind. my clutch on my 94 seems fine until it gets hot when i run it for awhile and then it starts grabbing rough and jurky. it only happens after i have been driving a while and works fine other wise. i dont know what would couse to to do that, but i figure the answer will be to replace the expensive clutch.

 

[Wanderer-rrorc]

nice info cheeper jeeper, i will have to keep that in mind. my clutch on my 94 seems fine until it gets hot when i run it for awhile and then it starts grabbing rough and jurky. it only happens after i have been driving a while and works fine other wise. i dont know what would couse to to do that, but i figure the answer will be to replace the expensive clutch.

your pressure plate probably has scorching on it...and some fine wear cracks that can be surfaced out...

 

[Bob F]

Clutch Linkage

Your shifting difficulties and low pedal are almost certainly due to worn linkage. The Heim joint mod is a great suggestion. I couldn't find a Heim joint locally, but found a 3/8" ID x 1/2" OD bronze bushing at Tractor Supply that fit perfectly into the master cylinder rod loop and combined with a 3/8" dia. bolt instead of the welded-in pin works great. I also had to replace the aluminum housing on mine as the hole nearest the clutch pedal was worn out. My transmission shifts great now and the clutch engagement/disengagement is now several inches above the floor.

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

your pressure plate probably has scorching on it...and some fine wear cracks that can be surfaced out...

Ditto, I spent $35 to have mine resurfaced. Every time I've done a clutch job and skimped on having the flywheel resurfaced I've regretted it - cause I ended up with a grabby clutch. Which is just what you're describing ttman4....

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

Your shifting difficulties and low pedal are almost certainly due to worn linkage. The Heim joint mod is a great suggestion. I couldn't find a Heim joint locally, but found a 3/8" ID x 1/2" OD bronze bushing at Tractor Supply that fit perfectly into the master cylinder rod loop and combined with a 3/8" dia. bolt instead of the welded-in pin works great. I also had to replace the aluminum housing on mine as the hole nearest the clutch pedal was worn out. My transmission shifts great now and the clutch engagement/disengagement is now several inches above the floor.

Good call Bob F, but there are also two other possibilities that will result in the same symptoms.

One is a TOB fork and pressure plate fingers that are worn due to a dragging TOB.

Another is firewall flex/cracking.