Yet another timing question

[dsblack]

Took the truck in and had it timed at 9 degrees.
Now when cold the truck smokes terribly until it gets warmed up. And It seems to have less power than before.
But, on the plus side, It seemed to run cooler, but it is cool outside, so I do not know how much that impacted the temps.

Oh ya..The dealer moved the timing by 8 degrees. And I do not know what method they use..

Thanks
Doug

 

[Agnem]

Doesn't sound good. There is no way it should feel like it has less power. I fear they did not know what they were doing.

 

[93_E_350]

What did they time it with - luminosity probe or pulse adapter and timing light? If they used a pulse adapter did they go 9* BTDC or ATDC? Before I did the timing on my van it smoked badly when cold (yard fogger) and a little once warmed up. When I checked the timing using a luminosity style meter I found it to be 18* ATDC, this would probably be 9* ATDC using the pulse type. Now with the van timed at 2* ATDC it smokes very little when first started (2 – 3 minutes) and that’s it even when it’s been below zero, and she has more than enough power for what I use it for. I had tried to go closer to TDC (0*) but without a turbo I lost power and had a lot of black smoke and fuel mileage dropped off - what color smoke do you have - maybe they went a little too farr BTDC???

 

[93_E_350]

Doesn't sound good. There is no way it should feel like it has less power. I fear they did not know what they were doing.

I know you've probably run across articles where the engines were “tuned for quietness” rather than power and economy even by the dealerships

 

[dsblack]

I fear they did not know, or there was a miscommunication. I was told to time it at 9 when I got the pump from ken. Is this BTDC, or ATDC? With what style of timing.
I will call and ask what kind of timing they used, but it can not be right. It smokes white, if it were summer I think I could take out all of the mosquitoes for 1000 miles.

I was better off before I spent the 150 to have it timed.

 

[93_E_350]

BTDC = Before Top Dead Center
ATDC = After Top Dead Center

Top Dead Center is when the piston is at the very top of its stroke. Theoretically this is right were you want the ignition to occur. But realistically you want it a little past to reduce the chances of pre-ignition which can reduce power and break glow plugs pistons and stuff like that.

8.5* BTDC or 1.5* ATDC - This is where most of the confusion comes in. The older IDI 6.9’s used a timing reference of 1.5* After Top Dead Center (the number varies depending on the manual). This was for use with the luminosity style meters. Luminosity meters actually read the light produced by the combustion itself. The IDI 7.3, and some new 6.9’s had a reference of 8.5* BTDC (again the number varies depending on the manual). This was for use with the pulse type adapters which sense the expansion and contraction of the injector line. You can use either one for timing the 6.9 or 7.3’s but you have to use the correct reference – 8.5* BTDC = Pulse adapter or 1.5 for the luminosity meters.

"I was better off before I spent the 150 to have it timed" = Well if you’re nice about it they will probably correct it. I would not go more then 8.5 degrees BTDC, even more to the 8 side.

"Take out all of the mosquitoes for 1000 miles" = sounds like its ATDC...

 

[f-two-fiddy]

Take it back, they did not time it properly.

 

[Agnem]

Factory spec for pulse timing calls for 8.5 degrees plus or minus 2 degrees. 10.5 degrees will run, but it's loud as hell. Shoot for 8.5 on the nose. Usually if I get it within a half a degree I'm happy. Where do you live? You need somebody who knows what they are doing to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if this shop doesn't have the equipment, and they just did it by ear, and a bad ear at that.

 

[dsblack]

I live near portland oregon. I used to have the truck worked on at the local IH dealer. Good standup guy named Tim. But he moved on, and they no longer service the 7.3 idi pickups.
So I took it to northside ford. the Ford dealer that seems to have a ok rep.
I just called them. They say it is not related to timing in any way, and they use a pulse adapter.
So now do I just put it back to where it was? or what. They are now telling me that I got a bad pump. But it ran fine before it was timed.

 

[zigg]

I live near portland oregon.
So I took it to northside ford. the Ford dealer that seems to have a ok rep.
I just called them. They say it is not related to timing in any way, and they use a pulse adapter.
They are now telling me that I got a bad pump. But it ran fine before it was timed.

I vote that they have no clue.

If it ran fine before, then the pump can't be shot just like that. If it is blowing white smoke, it is severely retarded.

I'd put it back where it was, or at least mark it, so you have a reference point, and then advance it, and see what difference it makes.

I had mine timed twice(same pump) and both times it ran worse, I finally just timed it by "ear", and it runs great now. I've no idea where exactly it is, but I've got a pyro, and it doesn't run hot, doesn't eat plugs, doesn't sound bad at all, I get over 20mpg fairly consistently, and it doesn't smoke(except for the quart of oil burned every 300miles!!). I do know it's better than the dealer had it.

just my .02

Zigg

 

[Diesel JD]

I think that 8.5*BTDC is at 2000RPM on a warm engine without accessory load spec also. If they didn't follow the directions they probably messed up. Is there not an independent diesel injection shop nearby that could do a better job? At least within reasonable driving distance?

 

[93_E_350]

Can you see the static timing marks between the timing gear cover and the pump? If the line on the pump is to the right (drivers side) of the timing gear cover then they moved it the wrong way. With the engine turned OFF loosen the 3 bolts that connect the pump to the timing gear cover and move the pump to your left (passenger side) one thickness of the line. Start it up and take it for a ride – if it runs better find someone near you that can take a look at the timing.

If you take a look at my web site I’ve got pictures of some wrenches I use when working on mine. You can also use a 9/16” starter wrench (half-moon shaped) just grind as much of the thickness off both sides of the box as you can so it will fit between the head of the bolt and the pump body.

 

[DIESEL RACER]

Did they time it at 8* or 9* BTDC @ 2000RPM, or did they do it at idle? Does the engine knock at all? If so, does the knock go away when you step on the throttle? They could also have it way too far advanced. Advanced timing = lower EGT, Retarded timing = higher EGT.

 

[Agnem]

There is also the possibility that they disturbed something. I can see a scenario where as the guy that did the job didn't know what he was doing, and couldn't get the pump to turn, so he loosened every line and clamp he could find, and maybe even damaged the pump with a big pair of pliers. WHO KNOWS! I find it rediculous that they didn't (and I'm assuming this is true) test drive it before and after the timing job, and that they won't hold themselves accountable for the drastic crappy changes that resulted. These are the kinds of dealer stories that turn my stomach! Maybe they are telling you it needs a new pump because they know they screwed it up! :eek

 

[sle2115]

Maybe they are telling you it needs a new pump because they know they screwed it up! :eek

Or they need to boost sales! Or they messed it up, so they could tell you that you needed a pump, so they could boost sales by getting your timing money, then sell you a pump, then sell you a timing job again...I am seeing a grassy knoll in there somewhere!!! This is the EXACT reason I avoid the dealerships like the plague. I would much rather find an independent guy, that actually cared about his work, to do anything I can't do at home. Since I couldn't find anyone to time an IDI, I need to buy a meter myself I guess and am contemplating that as well.