Which Pump? Which Supplier??

[Dave Barbieri]

This weekend I'm dragging home a 94 1ton Chevy diesel pickup. According to the PO, it's sat for three years, supposedly with a bad pump/PMD. I'll spend some time Saturday doing some troubleshooting to see what's really going on. I've spent the past two weeks reading this forum and looking at pump/PMD suppliers, and I've got a couple of questions.

First, how do I determine what pump actually goes on this truck? There seems to be a choice: 5068 or 5521. Looking at the existing pump won't help - the PO thinks it was swapped with 'something else'. Is there a chart somewhere? An identifier code on the options label? I'm kinda clueless here, so any help would be appreciated.

Second, what PMD relocation kits have you tried? There seems to be a choice here, also. Heath Diesel mounts the PMD on a simple aluminum plate bolted inside the front bumper, and runs a 6' extension harness back into the engine bay. They claim much lower operating temps and much greater reliability. S&S Diesel uses a large finned aluminum heatsink and mounts the PMD over the intake manifold inside the engine compartment. Despite engine heat, they claim their design is the best way to go. Any ideas on which system works better?

Third, any ideas on pump suppliers? I've used a pump shop here in east TX for the past 17 years. They do exceptional work. Never had to take anything back, and when they tweak a pump, the results are _seriously_ fun! A brand new pump from Stanadyne (with a 12 month warranty) is $1225. They don't handle rebuilt E-pumps. Has anybody had any experience with a rebuilt unit? If so, where'd you buy it, what did it cost, and how many miles do you have on it? I see a lot of interesting ads on various diesel parts webpages, but I've never done any business with these folks, so any input would be a real help.

Oh yeah, something else: How come this engine doesn't have any piston cooling jets? Not one single oil squirter to be seen! If you're gonna do any tweaking, how do you keep piston temps down? (inquiring minds wanna know....)

TIA for any input/suggestions/jokes.

Dave

 

[dieseldummy]

The old pump will have a tag one the front of it. It should say DS4831-5068, DS4831-5067, or a few other variations. Unless it is a 5068 you can put the latest greatest pump on with no problems. If it is a 5068 is you put a new pump on you will have to have the Eprom reburned with later specs.

The Heath relocation kit looks like a good one, anything to get the PMD out of the engine bay. A company called Remarq makes a device that replaces the PMD altogether.

I've never had any experience with new or reman DS4's. I see the rebuilt units selling for $600 or so, but I'd be weary of them IMO. The DS4's are much less forgiving than the old DB2's in respect to wear. I don't know how many parts they change out for $600, but I'm always skeptical about reman pumps in general. If your shop doesn't rebuild them there is likely a very good reason behind it. (warrenty costs)

The '97+ blocks have oil jets... the blocks also crack more than the rest. Usually the non oil spray blocks last longer before cracking and usually a cracked piston is uncommon.

BTW, if your pump is a 5068 and you want to trade cores or sell it let me know. I've got a little project up my sleeve that involves some parts out of the pump...

Justin

 

[Dave Barbieri]

Justin -

Thanks for the reply and the ideas!

OK, the fix doesn't sound too bad - replace the pump and install a matching chip. Hmmmmm.. might be a good time to consider a performance chip! However, my big problem is gonna be figuring out whether the pump that's in there now is the 'right' pump. The PO claims that when he picked up the truck from the shop, they had put all the parts in a big box and put the box in the bed of the truck. He said the pump in the box didn't look as new/clean/whatever as the pump on his engine. He thinks one of the techs just grabbed the first DB4 core he laid his hands on and threw it in the box. Since this happened three years ago, I have no way of proving/disproving. What I'm stuck with now is trying to figure out what exactly is _supposed_ to go on this engine.

I'll take a look at Remarq. Replacing a failure-prone part sounds like a super idea to me. From what I keep reading, this little black box sounds like one giant headache.

You're right about the warranty costs being a killer for the folks at ProSales. They were amazed at how quickly the reman pumps went south. Mark told me that clearances inside the pump were typically less than four-ten-thousandths of an inch. He had tried using a major supplier, and was pretty upset about the quality. Apparently the tolerances are so tight, that when the pump shells, the cost of replacing all the affected parts comes very close to the wholesale cost of a new pump from Stanadyne. He dropped the reman supplier and stuck to new pumps only.

It's kinda ironic to hear that the 'new and improved' late model blocks actually have more problems than the older ones. Go figure. After working on Cat and IH motors, it's really weird to see no attempt to cool the pistons. It was also a shock to see the HP/Torque specs and realize that the Chevy motor is putting out a LOT more torque than my workhorse 6.9. weird, weird, weird....

BTW, if your pump is a 5068 and you want to trade cores or sell it let me know. I've got a little project up my sleeve that involves some parts out of the pump...

I'll check on the number this weekend and let you know. If it turns out that I can't use it, it's yours for the price of shipping. Just understand that you'll be getting a fishing weight.

Dave

 

[dieseldummy]

Dave,

Find out what number the pump is to start with and then we can figure out is it's the correct one or not. I'm guessing it's been updated at some point during it's life, most likely under warrenty. The 5068 usually didn't last very long.

The only bad thing I've heard about Remarq is that sometimes in very cold climates it can give fits if all the wiring isn't up to par. That's more of a vehicle problem though.

Your story about Prosales is why I'd be weary of most reman pumps. They are a touchy pump at best when new. The other part is alot of the guys selling reman stuff might not warrenty it very well.

The new AM General block are cast by Navistar and are said to be bulletproof. They started production somewhere around 2001. The '97-'00 ones are the ones to stay away from.

Let me know on the pump, I just need the camring measurments mostly.

Justin

 

[towcat]

Sorry it took me a while to get back to the question. Been busy this week. Midwest Feul Injection has the DS4's on sale currently. The folks there are great to deal with and the prices are pretty good too. www.mwfi.com
I'vw bought both chevy and ford pumps from them.

 

[Dave Barbieri]

TC -

Thanks for the 'heads up' on the Midwest parts sale. I haven't been able to contact them this week - early mornings and late nites. And of course, they're closed on Saturdays. (dang!) If that $868 price is for a brand new unit with the pump driver module attached, then that's one heckuva deal. About $400 less than my local pump shop can do! I'll keep trying to get ahold of them next week and see.

The beast is now in the yard, so later today I'll get busy installing new batteries and battery cables and draining the fuel tank and changing the engine oil. Right now, I've gotta go deal with a water leak at my mother-in-law's.

Thanks again for the info!

Dave

 

[Dave Barbieri]

Update:

Flushed the fuel system. First, I disconnected the electrical fuel pump that mounts along the frame rail. I connected a hose fitting to the output end and fired that puppy up. I captured the first fuel out of the line in a jelly jar and set it aside. Didn't take long at all to suck out 14 gallons of old diesel fuel. Then I pulled the fuel filter out of its housing and used a new turkey baster to suck out all the fuel from the filter housing. Put all that fuel in a second jelly jar. Checked the filter housing for any debris/crud. Found none, so I installed a new Wix fuel filter. Hooked the fuel lines back up and put 12 gallons of fresh diesel (along with a _serious_ dose of Diesel Kleen and a bottle of two-stroke oil) in the tank. Disconnected the return line from the injection pump, fired up the electric fuel pump again and bled the old fuel out of the IP. Captured it in a jelly jar, too. Let my three samples settle while I changed the oil and the oil filter. In looking at the samples later, I saw no water or weird crud floating in the bottom of the jar(s). The fuel filter was yellow (the color of old diesel), not black (the color of algae). So, I feel pretty good about the fuel system.

Yesterday afternoon, I tried to crank the engine over. Two new 800CCA batteries and clean cables. Very slow. Maybe 100 - 120 rpm. That's an MT-series gear reduction starter. That sucker oughta scream. Not sure whether it's a starter problem or an engine mechanical problem. I'll pull the starter tomorrow evening and have it checked out at the local rebuilder. I was told that the starter was replaced a year ago. If I'm lucky, the starter got too hot from prolonged cranking at the shop. If I'm not lucky, then the starter's OK, and it's the engine that's dragging. bummer. Ah well, we'll see.

 

[Dave Barbieri]

Nuther update:

It's been raining here since Sunday, so I haven't been able to pull the starter yet. Did some checking on pieces/parts, and here's what I've found:

PMD
MWFI $240.00
ProMax $250.00
SS Diesel 275.00

PMD Cooler
MWFI $152.63
ProMax N/A
SS Diesel $120.00 (includes #9 resistor)

PMD & Cooler Kit
Heath Diesel $495.00
SS Diesel 399.00

Calibration Resistor
SS Diesel 19.00

DS4 Injection Pump
MWFI $868.42 (rebuilt, with PMD, 12 month warranty)
ProMax 1228.00 (new, with PMD, 12 month warranty)
SS Diesel 675.00 (rebuilt, less PMD, check on warranty)


Here are the sources that I used for this info:

Midwest Fuel Injection
1100 Hosler Dr
Bolingbrook, IL 60490
1-877-375-7867

Promax Diesel Injection Service
306 Enterprise
Longview, TX 75604
1-903-759-2900

SSDiesel SupplyTM
977 Military Road
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-6900 Phone
(716) 874-6966 Fax

 

[towcat]

dave-
I can't enough good things about MWFI. Especially their service. In my book, they take all the hesitation in using mail order. Having been in small business all my life, I view the relationships with my local suppliers very highly. given a choice, I would be buying local first. Unfortunately, there isn't a local rebuilder worth beans anymore so I went looking mail order. I like the fact they treat me like I was next door to them. No core charge, liberal core return times, and best of all when a problem hits, they will make things right first and then worry about getting the wrong parts back. I've tested the system once and was very impressed how quickly they made things right

 

[Dave Barbieri]

TC -

You're absolutely right about the folks at MWFI. I had a chance to speak with Kevin, teh shop supervisor - very knowledgeable and very helpful. He explained the cutoff date to look for to ID which IP I actually needed. He was also very reassuring - he pointed out that even if I did order the wrong pump, that could easily be fixed with a new EPROM. Piece of cake!

We're expecting some pretty bad weather here tonite, so we shut things down a little early. I got home ahead of the storm and went out and flashed my trouble codes. Nuthin but 12's. I really expected something, but nada, zip, zilch. I'll try again to get the starter off tomorrow nite, so it can go with me to work Friday. I'll be out of town this weekend, but it'd be really great to get back Sunday and spend some time tinkering.

 

[Dave Barbieri]

Nuther Update II

Finally, we've had enough clear weather that I wouldn't drown in mud! Pulled the starter and brought it in to work to tear down and check out. It's a rebuilt AC Delco, put on about a year ago. The armature showed some blue/arcing, so I dressed it and replaced the solenoid. Reinstalled the starter, and it does turn over a LOT quicker. I hooked external battery power to my electric fuel pump and repriomed the filter and pump circuit. I then loosened the lines at injectors #1 and #3 and tried cranking the engine. I'm getting fuel to both injectors. Pretty good amount, too. 10 seconds of cranking will leave a spot on a shop towel about the size of half a dollar bill. What I don't know right now is if the pump is building sufficient pressure to trigger the injectors. I cranked the engine over three separate times, but saw no white smoke out the tailpipe. Sniffing the tailpipe, I didn't notice any smell of burnt diesel. hmmmm.....

I've tried reading DTC's by shorting the diagnostic link connector again, but I still only get code 12's. This afternoon, I'll take one of our OTC code readers home and plug it in. Maybe I can pull something from the data stream. So far, no indication that I have any problems with the PMD, and the motor seems to spin over well, and oil pressure quickly builds to around 40psi. I'll do some more digging. (Provided it doesn't rain!)

 

[Dave Barbieri]

Nuther Update III

Well, ran the OTC scantool, checked the data stream. All the sensors are reading accurately and no stored codes. However, my cranking speed is still below 120rpm. And, with the injector lines disconnected, I'm seeing a small spurt, but no real output. Also, after all this cranking, I should be seeing some white smoke at the exhaust tips. Nada, zip, zilch. Just like before, not even a slight smell.

I guess I'm to the point that I need to decide if it's worth spending $1200 to find out for sure. Man, that's a heckuva gamble...

 

[towcat]

dave-
120rpm is not fast enough for cranking speed. 300rpm is minimum.

 

[Dave Barbieri]

Bingo. That's what's been worrying me all along. That's one reason I brought the MT1250 home. I wanted to see actual sensor outputs, GP voltage, and cranking speed. As I mentioned earlier, the starter has very little wear and tear on it. I was kinda worried about overheating, so I disassembled it and checked the commutator, armature and brushes. All good; l no shorts/opens/bluing. I replaced the solenoid and reinstalled it. Even with all this, my cranking speed is still too low.

The previous owner mentioned that the truck 'lost power and stopped running'. Two repair shops have treated this as a pump/PMD problem. I'm wondering if the root cause might be internal engine damage. That would explain no codes, no readings out of limits, slow cranking speed and no pump output. (The stanadyne guys tell me that the pump needs to be turning at least 75rpm - 150 crankshaft rpm - to generate sufficient pressure to trigger the injectors.)

TC, I appreciate all the advice you and DieselDummy have provided. I think thisa is one project that I'm going to pass on.

 

[dieseldummy]

Have you checked all the grounds? These trucks seem to be especially sensitive to grounding issues.