Timing question(s)

[fields_mj]

I'm dropping my truck off at the shop on Monday to have a rebuilt pump, and new injectors put in. The shop is NKP Diesel Performance in Rockville IN, and they have a good reputation locally. They have the tools required to set the timing on my truck. I know there are 2 different methods that people use, but I don't remember what they are called. I also know that I want the timing advanced to about 8.5 deg, but I don't know which method that is in reference to, or what the corresponding setting would be using the other method. If someone could refresh my memory a bit so that I can tell these guys exactly what I'm wanting, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[icanfixall]

The prefered timing method is called pluse type timing. The other is called luminosity type timing. The pluse is done with a clamp on adapter that fits either the number 1 or 4 hard line from the injection pump. The luminosity timing method is done by a lumi probe that installed in the number 1 glow plug hole. The clampon method is the 8.5 degree timing you want... That before top dead center. The lumi timing method is set by an after top dead center timing. They are both supposed to equal the same final timing in degrees but nobody has actually proven this.

 

[flareside_thun]

I don't want to be a bother, but why don't you save some cash and swap the IP and injectors out yourself? Usually, the only time the injectors will be a pain is if the fire ring has leaked and let carbon into the injector bore. It's really not as an intimidating task as people think it is...

 

[fields_mj]

I don't want to be a bother, but why don't you save some cash and swap the IP and injectors out yourself? Usually, the only time the injectors will be a pain is if the fire ring has leaked and let carbon into the injector bore. It's really not as an intimidating task as people think it is...

If I had an entire weekend to do it, I would, but I don't. I think I could get it done in a day, but after replacing the return line kit a few years ago, I'm pretty sure that it would take me ALL day, and I would STILL have to take it up to them to have the timing set. Between the repairs that need to be done around the house, the firewood that needs to be cut, hauled, split, and/or stacked, and trying to coordinate between my work schedule and my wife's work schedule so that my daily driver is not out of commision at the wrong time, I'd rather spend that Saturday fishing with my kids, or getting my stands ready for deer season rather than getting a sore back/feet/knees/legs while busting my knuckles all day under my hood again. The bill is going to be $250, and they will have it done and ready to pick it up by lunch the day after I drop it off. I figure it would probably run me $100 to have them do the timing anyway, and I'd still have to coordinate a trip up there, and a day when my wife is off work so that I can use her vehicle. Having my Saturday available to work on something else, or spend time with the kids is well worth the extra $150. If I could do the whole thing myself, then I probably would, but since I have to go through the hassle of loading the kids up and takeing 2 vehicles to the shop (40 min drive each way) on two different days and coordinating work schedules and such, I'm not really saving any of the hassle by doing it myself.

 

[icanfixall]

The fee of $250.00 for new injectors. A rebuilt pump. Timing and a return line kit seems really low. Any chance you are supplying parts... Just a good set of new injectors are $200.00 plus let alone the fee to install them. If you are getting all the above listed for the price you posted... Well I would have a few questions to ask about what parts are being installed... I hope you didn't leave out a zero and the cost is actually $2500.00... I do understand spending time with loved ones. You can't put a cost on that. No amount of money made makes up for lost time with the family... Benn there too. spent the money too..

 

[fields_mj]

The fee of $250.00 for new injectors. A rebuilt pump. Timing and a return line kit seems really low. Any chance you are supplying parts... Just a good set of new injectors are $200.00 plus let alone the fee to install them. If you are getting all the above listed for the price you posted... Well I would have a few questions to ask about what parts are being installed... I hope you didn't leave out a zero and the cost is actually $2500.00... I do understand spending time with loved ones. You can't put a cost on that. No amount of money made makes up for lost time with the family... Benn there too. spent the money too..

Sorry, forgot to mention. Yes, I am suppling the parts. The $250 is pretty much just labor. I got a rebuilt pump off e-bay from U-Haul when they were on sale for $250, and a set of injectors and another return line kit from Russ. I'll have about $800 wrapped up in it if everything goes well, and that's less than the $1000 I had originally planned on back when I bought the truck.

 

[Agnem]

OK, but when you go to this shop, here is how the conversation should go....

You: "What is the offset you are going to use, and what will you set the timing to and using what method? "

Them: 20, 8.5 using the pulse method.

Do not go in there and say "I want my truck timed to 8.5 degrees BTDC."

If their "good reputation" is indeed good, then they should answer your question. If you have to tell them how to time it, I would take my truck elsewhere.

 

[fields_mj]

Sweet! Thanks for that advice!

 

[Trying my best]

OK, but when you go to this shop, here is how the conversation should go....

You: "What is the offset you are going to use, and what will you set the timing to and using what method? "

Them: 20, 8.5 using the pulse method.

Do not go in there and say "I want my truck timed to 8.5 degrees BTDC."

If their "good reputation" is indeed good, then they should answer your question. If you have to tell them how to time it, I would take my truck elsewhere.

I just ordered a ferret timing adapter, What does "offset" mean. With the ferret adapter, I was going to set my advance to 8.5 on the timing gun, rev the motor to 2000 and adjust as needed. Is there more to it as in "offset"? Don't mean to hijack just thought this might be a good place to asked

Thanks

 

[OLDBULL8]

You don't have an offset with a Ferrett. Mel is talking about a luminosity set up.

 

[Trying my best]

Thanks OldBull. Makes life easier.

 

[Agnem]

You don't have an offset with a Ferrett. Mel is talking about a luminosity set up.

Luminosity OR pulse.

 

[Diesel JD]

Mel is talking about any old dedicated timing box such as the SnapOn MT480, 1480, the Ford Rotunda factory tools or similar. The reason is that the hole on the crankshaft damper that the book tells you to use, the taller narrower one is at 20*ATDC with respect to cylinder #1. I have actually used the bigger wider hole which is at 0*, so either no offset or a different offset than 20* would be required depending on what cylinder you use. No one has told me why this is not acceptable other than it is the "wrong hole" I have verified on the same engine, given the correct offsets for each that the 20* and 0* hole give identical results. It seems the bigger opening is easier to clean. If this is damaging to the probe or there is a good reason not to do it...don't follow my example without doing your own research to see if what I say is right and if you accept the risks of doing so...just throwing out the reasoning behind the offset. Personally, I would ask them what method of timing they use or what tool and where they put the timing with it. Chances are if it's a Stanadyne dealer that still has the correct tools it's Stanadyne's own tool that we typically don't see on ebay because it is big bucks even used. It does pulse timing from what I hear. If you've done your research and you're satisfied with their answers that's all that matters. Personally I'd ask them what tool they use and what timing method. They should be able to come up with good answers though they may not know the terms luminosity or pulse. I'd ask where they would put the timing. If you don't like their specs and are sure of what you know it's within your rights to ask for a different setting. Also, Oldbull is correct that with the Ferret and adjustable strobe timing light you do not need an offset thanks to the lack of using one of the ports on the damper for reference for timing/rpm. He could explain it better, but from what I know, you basically aim the timing light at the "0" line on the damper and adjust the strobe till the line and the light line up, then you adjust the timing as needed. For example if you have dialed in 8.5 degrees of advance and the strobe falls to the advanced side of the mark, you'd need to rotate the pump clockwise the light and line are even with each other. If I misunderstand please feel free to correct me, those of you who have used this or similar (Snapon MT254/257)

 

[fields_mj]

I just got off the phone with one of the guys there. They use a Tellatrack unit that clamps onto the #1 injection line. I'm guessing this means that it's a pulse method. The guy said they generally set the trucks up to what ever the factory spec is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't our spec 8.0 plus or minus 0.2? He said they would be glad to set it where ever I asked. Is 8.5 too much? My understanding is that by advancing the timing, I'm gaining some HP and some fuel economy, which is a good thing, but it will also run a little rougher and a little louder. Some might like the louder part, but not me. However, for an increase in fuel economy, I'll live with it. The other reason that I'd like the timing advanced is because, as I understand it, it's better for running alternative fuels like WVO, or WMO. I'm not using either of those yet, but I would like to at some point. What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Mark