Steering gearbox return line questions

[Heide264]

Good Afternoon,

(long story)
As a bit of background, I picked up a 94 F350 4x4 with the turbo'd 7.3L in it. The truck only made turns at higher RPMs, and needed/needs a ton of work. The brakes are terrifying. I have a refurb'd power steering pump in it now, with the extra return nipple. I also picked up a refurb'd gearbox and have that bolted up (but not attached to the ball joint, yet - figure that'll help to prime it). I still have to run my lines. I am planning on doing a hydroboost conversion while my truck is still weighing my parking pad down. I think as of now I'll be getting a chevy unit and shortening the push rod.

So I have the high pressure lines from the pump to the hydro and the hydro to the gearbox in my garage. I believe they should both fit - with one fitting being questionable as it's a metric vs english mash up.

...As typical, I destroyed every flared fitting possible while dismantling everything, even with a set of decent flare wrenches. So I am left with needing the return line from the gearbox to the pump, including 'cooler' loop thing.

I thought after redoing the whole system, I may as well pick up a $30 derale cooler from amazon that I can mount nicely by the radiator somewhere (Amazon Link). It uses 11/32 hose barbs as inlet and outlet.


(short story)
I figure I can skip out on that whole little return line with the cooling loops (which looks like a bleeding nightmare, by the way) by just getting a barbed fitting for the return port on the gearbox, running 3/8" generic tubing from there to the cooler input barb (with some fighting on the 11/32" barb), then 3/8" generic tubing from the cooler output barb to one of the return ports on the pump.

I was thinking about using this straight into the gearbox return port: Fitting Link


My main concerns/questions:
1.) Is there any issue with using brass/copper in a power steering system?

2.) Given the factory line doesn't use a flared fitting to attach to the pump, I am assuming that the return is low enough pressure that some well placed Oetinker clamps will seal all return connections up for a looong time.

3.) I'm an engineer, and I make things overly difficult. I also am NOT a diesel mechanic. My only hydraulic experience has been with the brakes and fuel rails/lines in my Subaru, so any advice, reality checks, or concerns on the matter would be appreciated.

Thanks guys! I've been reading for a while on the boards and I appreciate all the knowledge!

 

[icanfixall]

Really your most difficult issue is the metric to us standard fitting. For that I suggest any good hydraulic hose shop and they can custom make any hose with any fittings. The return is very low pressure from the hydroboost back to the power steering pump reservoir and the steering return too. It is just simple low pressure hydraulic line too found at most fake auto parts stores like vatozone. Hopefully you are a great welder because weling on any brake parts requires some know how. a bad weld that brakes rendering the brakes useless and an accident makes for interesting visits to a lawyer's office.

 

[Heide264]

Really your most difficult issue is the metric to us standard fitting. For that I suggest any good hydraulic hose shop and they can custom make any hose with any fittings. The return is very low pressure from the hydroboost back to the power steering pump reservoir and the steering return too. It is just simple low pressure hydraulic line too found at most fake auto parts stores like vatozone. Hopefully you are a great welder because weling on any brake parts requires some know how. a bad weld that brakes rendering the brakes useless and an accident makes for interesting visits to a lawyer's office.

Thanks for the input.

I will make sure that regardless whether I shorten the pedal rod or create a spacer between the hydroboost and firewall that I will talk to a quality welder if needed. I, myself, am worthless in terms of welding with anything at the moment.

As for the metric to US fittings, I will look around and see what I can find. If I can find a small adapter to go from the flared fitting to an AN/JIC connection, I could use premade industrial hydraulic hoses. I believe the threads between the english and metric connections are incredibly close, however. It's weird seeing an o ring like they use in high pressure applications - I've never seen that.

Perhaps I will keep my eye open for a SuperDuty hydro in the mean time.

 

[TahoeTom]

I used a similar cooler in the return line between the hydroboost unit and the PS pump. My radiator support had a rectangular cutout for my original air intake and I mounted it there. I would get another unmolested cooling loop from a junk yard and use it too. There was no issue bleeding it. One thing that got me was trying to bleed by rotating the steering wheel with the pitman arm disconnected and the engine not running, The fluid was squirting out the vent hole and making a mess. I didn't want to run the pump low on fluid while bleeding so I tried it with the engine off. Right click on pic and select view image. All my pictures come out too large.

 

[Heide264]

Really your most difficult issue is the metric to us standard fitting. For that I suggest any good hydraulic hose shop and they can custom make any hose with any fittings. The return is very low pressure from the hydroboost back to the power steering pump reservoir and the steering return too. It is just simple low pressure hydraulic line too found at most fake auto parts stores like vatozone. Hopefully you are a great welder because weling on any brake parts requires some know how. a bad weld that brakes rendering the brakes useless and an accident makes for interesting visits to a lawyer's office.

I used a similar cooler in the return line between the hydroboost unit and the PS pump. My radiator support had a rectangular cutout for my original air intake and I mounted it there. I would get another unmolested cooling loop from a junk yard and use it too. There was no issue bleeding it. One thing that got me was trying to bleed by rotating the steering wheel with the pitman arm disconnected and the engine not running, The fluid was squirting out the vent hole and making a mess. I didn't want to run the pump low on fluid while bleeding so I tried it with the engine off. Right click on pic and select view image. All my pictures come out too large.

Cool. I think I'm going to try to avoid picking up that little loop though - I'd rather just not have it in the system provided I can find a barbed fitting locally. I'll find somewhere to mound the cooler. It's odd having so much space in the engine bay with this truck.

I'm a bit confused by your bleeding issue. What vent hole was the fluid coming out? Also, I was going to just spin the power steering pump pulley by hand without the serpentine belt installed, not move the steering wheel. I would think that would be one less thing I need to pay mind to when I finally start this thing, plus it would get fluid in the system until I get it up and going.

 

[TahoeTom]

The cap on the PS pump has a vent hole. I did spin the pulley by hand to get as much air out and fluid in as I could. In my case my engine wasn't ready to run at the time. I have heard these pumps don't like running low on fluid so I tried moving the gearbox through it's range to hopefully bleed more air out.

 

[Heide264]

The cap on the PS pump has a vent hole. I did spin the pulley by hand to get as much air out and fluid in as I could. In my case my engine wasn't ready to run at the time. I have heard these pumps don't like running low on fluid so I tried moving the gearbox through it's range to hopefully bleed more air out.

Ah, okay. That is weird - any idea why that caused anything to shoot out the vent? That is the same situation I am in though... engine will be sitting there for a bit, so I plan to try to bleed the system as much as possible.



Alright, so I did some thinking today. I found this thread and wanted to double check some numbers (see below)

Assumptions:
-The GM hydroboost uses an 18mm high pressure port and 16mm low pressure port (source... internet forum).
-The F-super duty hoses I for a 1993 model hydroboost are Edelmann 71442 (Pump to Hydro, RockA Specs, ends in a 7/16 'male o-ring' fitting) and Edelmann 71416 (Hydro to Gear, Rock A Specs, with the hydro end being a 3/8" 'male o-ring').

Measurements:
I only have the two power steering hoses I ordered in hand - not the GM ones. I measured with my calipers (iGaging absolute... a good bit better than Harbor Freight, but a far cry from the best out there) both fittings at their widest threads to find their OD:
Pump to Hydro (Hydro end): 17.28mm (LCAM-01XA measured 17.44mm)
Hydro to Gear (Hydro end): 15.57mm (LCAM-01XA measured 15.86mm)

To measure the thread 'width', I measured the ID towards the of the threads:
Pump to Hydro (Hydro end): 16.11mm [estimated thread width of (17.28-16.11)/2 = 0.585 mm]
Hydro to Gear (Hydro end): 14.47mm [estimated thread width of (15.57-14.47)/2 = 0.550 mm]


So in a nutshell.. I can't really tell jack without the comparable GM hoses. However, I have a feeling I will be using a set of these nice adapters from PSC: Link (They make both 18mm and 16mm to 6AN). I'll give some thought tomorrow about the safest way to go from a 3/8" OD hard line to a AN/JIC fitting safely and within a reasonable budget. I have a feeling a cutoff wheel and a quality flare is all it will take. I will try to avoid NPT fittings at all costs - I have never had luck with them sealing at even reasonable pressures.

I'm still amazed that these weird swivel o-ring type fittings hold at those pressures with such little torque (the instructions say 10-20lbs max... and the hose should be able to rotate).

Have a good evening!

 

[IDIoit]

My rule of thumb when it comes to welding brake or steering components.
Always TIG, never MIG

 

[jaluhn83]

Why not get a reman ford hydro so it's all bolt up and you know it's speced right? IIRC, a reman hydro unit is only about $100-150 off rock auto. Not sure where you're getting the chevy unit, but by the time you get that and hoses and monkey around trying to get everything to fit it seems like getting the right stuff is worth the money...

Plus you know it's right. The chevy unit may be designed for a different stroke/bore/whatever, and this could certainly come back to bite you.... things like maybe the hydro bottoming out in stroke before you reach full line pressure on a panic stop with maybe a bit of air in the lines.... that is, it may work fine 99% of the time but still be a problem that 1% you really really need it. For the cost and given the importance of brakes, I'd suggest just doing that.

Especially because this eliminates any need to adapt/weld hydro lines as well. Since the PS system is important for both steering and braking with a hydro system this is doubly important. Certainly can be done, by why mess with it when you can easily do it with stock stuff?

 

[Heide264]

Sorry - been a bit busy lately.

Why not get a reman ford hydro so it's all bolt up and you know it's speced right? IIRC, a reman hydro unit is only about $100-150 off rock auto. Not sure where you're getting the chevy unit, but by the time you get that and hoses and monkey around trying to get everything to fit it seems like getting the right stuff is worth the money...

Plus you know it's right. The chevy unit may be designed for a different stroke/bore/whatever, and this could certainly come back to bite you.... things like maybe the hydro bottoming out in stroke before you reach full line pressure on a panic stop with maybe a bit of air in the lines.... that is, it may work fine 99% of the time but still be a problem that 1% you really really need it. For the cost and given the importance of brakes, I'd suggest just doing that.

Especially because this eliminates any need to adapt/weld hydro lines as well. Since the PS system is important for both steering and braking with a hydro system this is doubly important. Certainly can be done, by why mess with it when you can easily do it with stock stuff?

The Ford unit won't bolt up directly, either. It will still require messing with the pedal linkage unless I get the entire pedal set as well (most likely). The master cylinder will require slightly mounting modification, as well, if I use my current master cylinder (which, judging off the paint on the vacuum booster, may not be in prime condition).

The other issue is that reman'd hydroboosts for Ford units are in the $300+ range on rock auto without a core, last I checked. I could very well have missed something though. Also, I would be missing the small amount of hardware (a pin and spring, mostly) that is normally included in a hydroboost equipped truck that isn't included with a reman'd hydroboost. The Chevy unit I can get with a master cylinder for under $100 around here.

Definitely valid points, but it seems like I have some work to do with either unit. If I can go with one that will be easily replaceable in the future, I may as well.

 

[riotwarrior]

I'd really suggest getting a whole SD hyrdroboost package myself, reservior and hoses and booster. If you can score the pedal great.

All STD transmission Vacuum brake pedals have same shape and dimensions from 80's to 94 for sure, I did a thread on this exact issue showing all years and comparing them.

The hydroboost pedal has the pin located 3/4" higher up towards the hanger of pedal. Not a big deal actually just drill and add a Gr 8 9/16 bolt in the hole weld it there cut to length cut off old pin and golden.

If you have an auto trans then I cannot speak to if all years have same brake pedal shape dimensions and so forth.

U can still redrill your pedal and re-pin it for the hydro and that way, NO FUNNY lines all stock any Ford dealer or parts store can get them. Makes future repairs much simpler in my mind.

thats just my take

 

[jaluhn83]

.

True, there is some work needed on the Ford unit, but not much and it's all well documented. The petal mod is easy, cut off the old pin, drill about 3/4" further up and install a new pin. A grade 5 bolt works well. Also a good time to put a bronze bushing on instead of the stock plastic pos, and easy to drill the end and install a cotter pin.

https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/catalog.php?carcode=1501591&parttype=1884
Not sure the link will work, but reman boost for $150 including core. I came up with about $270 for a reman booster, new MC, new hoses and reman PS pump. Easy.

Work and cost wise I expect you'll come out equal. If anything, I'd expect the Chevy to take more time & cost since there will be a learning curve plus all the little things you may forget/not realize. Beyond that, there's no guaranty how well it will work in the end.... The F-450 setup is a known animal with plenty of documentation and verification.

 

[snicklas]

I'd really suggest getting a whole SD hyrdroboost package myself, reservior and hoses and booster. If you can score the pedal great.

A couple of things with the 99+ F-250, F-350 (not sure about the F-450 or F-550) and Excursion SuperDuty hydroboost setup.

1. All the fittings on the system, are metric, pump and steering gear box. The 80-96 pump and gear box are SAE (English).

2. The reservoir is not mounted to the pump. It is a separate, remote mounted reservoir. On the SuperDuty this is mounted to the drivers side inner fender by the hood hinge, right nest to the brake booster / master cylinder.

Greg50OH would be a good source on information of mixing and matching the two. He is in the process of putting his Bricknose Body with an IDI, onto an 06 SuperDuty frame.

I am not sure if the pedals differ on the 99+ trucks. Some even have the option of power adjustable pedals for the brake and accelerator. (My Excursion has this option.) Not sure if the SD pedal assembly could be swapped into the older trucks...

Hydroboost is really, really nice. You don't realize how "bad" vacuum brakes are until you drive a hydroboost vehicle. My 8000 pound Excursion, with Hydroboost and 4 wheel disk brakes will panic stop better than my 91 Jetta..........

 

[jaluhn83]

I think he means F-superduty as in the early F-450. (87-9x) Completely different than the superduty line. (99+) The f-superduty setup is a bolt in mod on the smaller trucks, except for the brake petal pin location (and the petal can be swapped easily if you find one) and on 80-86 trucks a fitting to adapt the brake lines if using the superduty MC.

 

[Heide264]

Thanks for the advice guys. I appreciate the input.

I'll do a bit more reading and scouting around. I wish Ford Hydroboosts were more plentiful around here. It's tough to find the suckers. I would much rather move the peg on the pedal than adjust the hydroboost pedal arm length, and finding a 7/8" inverted flare to anything adapter is a huge PITA.

I have an E40D in this thing, and I haven't found much info regarding the pedals. I'll have to reply to riotwarriors post once I get around to it. If I find a superduty with everything in it, I'll snag the manual pedals for later. The clutch pedal may not do anything... yet

One other issue I thought of with my return line... is the return fitting on the gearbox one of those 'swivel o-ring flares' or whatever they are called or is it a standard inverted flare fitting? I have a feeling I'm just gonna pick up one off of amazon to make my life easier now that it's cold and dark outside.

...Sure be nice if I could get this thing in my garage, ha. I'll have to think more about details like that before buying a 'fixer upper' again.