Spare gallon can o' vacuum?

85ford

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I have a question alot of guys are saying that when the engine stops and the brake booster is out of juice it's bad news, so they say to switch to hydro boost. But my question is does the hydro boost system have a resivoir of some kind? Because if not wouldn't it be worse then the vaccum booster?
 

opusd2

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Are you saying that our diesels stop at inopportune moments? The shame of it all!

Of course, the braking is then a bit worse. I have it on my diesel Suburban, and it has yet to quit on me when braking. Knock on wood...
 

OLDBULL8

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I have a question alot of guys are saying that when the engine stops and the brake booster is out of juice it's bad news, so they say to switch to hydro boost. But my question is does the hydro boost system have a resivoir of some kind? Because if not wouldn't it be worse then the vaccum booster?

Well yeah! When the engine stops so does the power steering pump, which supplies power for hydro boost. Nope no reservior on that. Just a strong leg.
 

dave186

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Some hydroboost units have an accumulator to store some hydraulic pressure should the pump quit. I dont know if they ones you guys are swapping onto these IDIs do. the only advantage I see to the hydro boost is decreased pedal travel and effort. these older fords are known for being able to flex the calipers with the small diameter master cylinders. i think in 96 or 97 ford started using the larger bore master cylinder to help with that. you can also put it on in place of the smaller bore masters with a little grinding.
 

The Warden

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Some hydroboost units have an accumulator to store some hydraulic pressure should the pump quit. I dont know if they ones you guys are swapping onto these IDIs do. the only advantage I see to the hydro boost is decreased pedal travel and effort. these older fords are known for being able to flex the calipers with the small diameter master cylinders. i think in 96 or 97 ford started using the larger bore master cylinder to help with that. you can also put it on in place of the smaller bore masters with a little grinding.
Actually, if you use a larger-bore master cylinder from an F-450 along with the hydroboost unit from the same truck, you shouldn't have to do any grinding at all :) and the F-450 hydroboost unit DOES have a way to provide pressure even with the engine shut off...there's a nitrogen cylinder or something on those lines that stores built-up pressure and can allow the pedal to travel either two or three times with full assist before you lose the assist. At least, that's as I understand it...Calvin or Gary can probably explain it better than I could. I do know that there IS a mechanism included in the unit.

As to any perceived advantages...I've driven a truck with an F-450 hydroboost and master cylinder installed, and it's night-and-day. It takes considerably less effort and pedal travel to stop the truck, which in turn at least SHOULD mean that you can stop a larger load in a shorter distance. I've got the unit; I just need to get it installed in my truck...I honestly don't know why they didn't do this from the factory...
 

LCAM-01XA

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the only advantage I see to the hydro boost is decreased pedal travel and effort.
Well heck man, what more can you want? I mean, you get more brake assist and you pedal feel is much better, seems like a win-win situation to me... not to mention PS pumps do tend to last a whole lot longer than vacuum pumps.
 

icanfixall

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Yes... The hydroboost will allow you 2 or 3 peddle uses after the syayem is shut down... Motor off... This reserve resivour is the can on the side of the booster. Also these hydroboosts have an internal bypass. With the motor running press down on the brake peddle till it firms up. Now continue to press the peddle. It will go to the floor and you can hear the bypassing. You haven't lost your brakes because the peddle went to the floor. It just uses as much pressure that it needs to stop you. The panic stop will not add more braking pressure like the vacuum assist brakes did. The cacuum pump makes vacuum as long as the motor is running and the V-belts are running the pump... They don't work off on on..... Usually the vacuum cans rust out at the bottom where the clip is.. I just used rtv to seal mine years ago... Works fine...
 

dave186

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all you are doing with the hydro boost is making it easier to apply lots of hydraulic pressure to the brake system. Its not going to make your rotors and drums bigger. I have no problem getting the brakes smoking hot when towing way more than I should be with my vacuum assist.

you could have a point with the reliability of the vac pump though!
 

LCAM-01XA

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Dave, that's right, discs and drums don't go any bigger with hydroboost, however you gotta remember that braking torque is directly proportional to the clamping force of the calipers, which in its turn is directly proportional to the line pressure applied to them - so with the hydroboost you get higher braking torque per inch of pedal travel, and also higher maxiumm braking torque when you're standing on the pedal with all you got. It also makes the pedal feel better to most folks, as it's now stiffer and more responsive than the mushy bowl of jello pedal feel normally experienced with the factory vacuum booster - it's often described as the responsiveness of manual brakes with the assist of power brakes. To me personally this is a great selling point, as in a previous life I used to do brakes development for an OEM supplier and I'm very particular about brake pedal feels and what not. And yes, of course you can burn up the brakes with the vacuum booster while towing, the advantage of the hydroboost tho is that when they start fading due to heat you can apply still a bit more line pressure and somewhat counter the fade for at least a short period of time.
 

dave186

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Dave, that's right, discs and drums don't go any bigger with hydroboost, however you gotta remember that braking torque is directly proportional to the clamping force of the calipers, which in its turn is directly proportional to the line pressure applied to them - so with the hydroboost you get higher braking torque per inch of pedal travel, and also higher maxiumm braking torque when you're standing on the pedal with all you got. It also makes the pedal feel better to most folks, as it's now stiffer and more responsive than the mushy bowl of jello pedal feel normally experienced with the factory vacuum booster - it's often described as the responsiveness of manual brakes with the assist of power brakes. To me personally this is a great selling point, as in a previous life I used to do brakes development for an OEM supplier and I'm very particular about brake pedal feels and what not. And yes, of course you can burn up the brakes with the vacuum booster while towing, the advantage of the hydroboost tho is that when they start fading due to heat you can apply still a bit more line pressure and somewhat counter the fade for at least a short period of time.

Yep, its all about the pedal feel. for whatever reason, im fine with the mushy pedal. used to it i guess. with an 1 1/16 or 1 1/8 MC I cant imagine why you couldnt generate enough hydraulic pressure with vac boost to blow the 20 year old rubber lines most of these trucks still have on em.

When I was working for an independent shop I went to a few brake classes and one time they had a video of a ford truck twin piston caliper with a dial indicator on the back of it and a solid steel block in place of a rotor and pads they were getting .03" of flex with just the pressures generated by the trucks MC and booster. This is why a lot of places (ford dealers included) started installing the 1 5/16 MC onto the vac boosted trucks.
 

RLDSL

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Thats what I don't like about the f450 hydroboost is the small accumulator thingy. If I were to switch to hydroboost, I would like to find a way to swap out a rig from an F700+ that has the electric backup pump. You can find those on buses and such , but I don't know about the master cyl compatibility.
With those rigs, if the engine stalls, the electric backup pump takes over and you have all the brakes you need to get stopped with a tad more foot effort while the warning buzzers go off ;Sweet
 

LCAM-01XA

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Robert, Bendix Hydromax is the setup you're describing, can be found in most medium-duty platforms with hydraulic brakes. That thing is one mighty monster tho, and a fat one at that, so I can easily see fitment issues when you go to put it on a pickup truck...

Dave, all my vehicles get new brake lines within the first week of ownership usually, so blowing hoses and rusty lines ain't a concern in my case - I don't care much how fast my trucks can go, but I do want them to stop so fast the tailgater behind me has to either take the shoulder while creaming his pants when I lay ******* the brakes, or just plain fold up his car into my beastly rear bumper so I can get the $500 and use it to pay my insurance for the next 6 months and still have enough left for several tanks of fuel :D And what you saw in these caliper deflection tests is a perfect example of how effed-up in the head Ford bean-counters were (and still are, but that's another topic entirely) - instead or fixing the issue properly by beefing up the calipers, they tried to cover it up by installing an F-Superduty master to drop the line pressure - same thing they did back in the late '80s with the oil pressure gauges, they covered up the low readings by converting the gauges to essentially what's idiot lights with needles :eek: :backoff
 

opusd2

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Electric assisted brake pumps are nothing remotely new. I drove an old Chevy C60 fuel truck that had one, and it worked rather well. But it was a beast, I can't imagine taking up that much room in an engine compartment. I guess I'd go back to the old manual brakes that I had in a 73 F100 4x4 first, that thing always stopped no matter how I loaded the 4 wheel drum'd vehicle down or how fast I went. But I switched to front discs in that highboy about 15 years ago and figured I'd like power brakes to go with the 360 powered beast.

I have a hydroboost on the 6.2 powered 82 Suburban 4x4 I have and love it for the purpose, and if it can take care of the heavily loaded Battle Beast it should take care of my other toys that I work with. Then again, it does help to keep the rubber lines and hard lines in good enough shape to handle the pressure. But that goes without saying.
 

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