Some more cummins swap questions!

[DesertBen44]

So I have finally come accross what I consider to be a "good deal" on a 93 6 cyl cummins with all accessories turbo and intercooler with 180k on it, and have decided the cummins swap is a go.

Couple specific questions

-Anyone have a hydroboost setup working with the cummins? I just did the conversion and don't want to lose my superior braking.

-Does the ZF5 need to be moved back any to fit the 6bt in there? Research seems to show it needs to be moved 2 inches aft, which sounds like a pita. I am hoping to keep my zf5 and bw1356 xfer case, as I have a gearvendors unit with the adapter for the 1356

-From reading on oilburners, many are saying avoid the zf like the plague, I can pick up the getrag 360 that is still behind the cummins atm, and appears to be MUCH cheaper to rebuild, but then can I mate it to my BW xfer case and save my gearvendors usefulness? if so I could remove the cost of the adapter plate from my swap and could workout; could still go either way with it. I dont have any interest really in paying for a NV4500 trans as I have seen too many failures of them behind gassers and diesels alike. the ZF seems to hold up well even behind moded strokers, though they have an interwebs reputation of being week.

-Destroked seems to be the go to source for the adapter plate, mounts, and other misc stuff. Do most people use the adapter plate that uses a 6.0 starter? or the one that uses a cummins starter.

-The guy selling the motor says the pump needs new governor springs which i was planning on upgrading anyways, thinking of having whole ve pump rebuilt while motor is out, I figure it has probably never been rebuilt before. Maybe even send it out to conestoga diesel if he has any interest in working with cummins pumps, that way I know its a quality job. His evidence for it needing new springs is that it will surge on idle sometimes, which sounds like it makes sense, but can anyone confirm it? I have very limited experience with cummins engines.

- I am only looking to modify it up to 250hp, maybe 300. I live at almost 5000 feet elevation now, and towing up here is a lot tougher then down in Tucson, my nonturbo idi used to be great down there. The rotary pump seems to be more then capable of these numbers, any other reason why i should spring and spend a lot more money for a P pump?

The entire truck is for sale, and I could pick up the getrag trans, xfer case, and both front and rear axles for an additional 1000 bones, wonder if that route is even worth looking into? Would save me the money of eventually swapping in a dana 60 from a f350 which seem to basically be made of gold.

Any additional advice would be extremely helpful. Will hopefully pick the motor up in april, and gather the parts over the next month or 2, so it wont happen for a little while but I am trying to account for all possible hurdles before I take the truck out of service, as I am going to have one irritated wifey if she is driving me to work at 4 30 am for a month while the truck is down haha, hoping I can get it done only having the truck down for 2 weekends and one workweek.

I was thinking about buying a newer truck the last month or so (my idi motor has NOT proven reliable to me at all since I have owned it, and at 320k i am ready to get it outta here) but the value of used cars that are beat to **** and have 200k miles seems to be on the rise every day no thanks to "cash for clunkers" and personally I dont think there has ever been a truck as goodlooking as my 92 supercab longbed.

Thanks in advance for any advice! Not including the motor, turbo, accys, etc, im trying to keep the cost of the swap below 3k, if im being unreasonable let me know.

 

[Matrix37495]

You better run for cover after posting in the IDI forum...

Don't want to get run over by the bandwagon....

 

[Matrix37495]

So I have finally come accross what I consider to be a "good deal" on a 93 6 cyl cummins with all accessories turbo and intercooler with 180k on it, and have decided the cummins swap is a go.

Couple specific questions

-Anyone have a hydroboost setup working with the cummins? I just did the conversion and don't want to lose my superior braking.

Should just need some custom hoses... Don't give up the hydroboost...

-Does the ZF5 need to be moved back any to fit the 6bt in there? Research seems to show it needs to be moved 2 inches aft, which sounds like a pita. I am hoping to keep my zf5 and bw1356 xfer case, as I have a gearvendors unit with the adapter for the 1356

My buddy with a Fummins has his trans moved back.

-From reading on oilburners, many are saying avoid the zf like the plague, I can pick up the getrag 360 that is still behind the cummins atm, and appears to be MUCH cheaper to rebuild, but then can I mate it to my BW xfer case and save my gearvendors usefulness? if so I could remove the cost of the adapter plate from my swap and could workout; could still go either way with it. I dont have any interest really in paying for a NV4500 trans as I have seen too many failures of them behind gassers and diesels alike. the ZF seems to hold up well even behind moded strokers, though they have an interwebs reputation of being week.

Buddy mentioned above is making an estimated 400hp with a normal S5-47 ZF5.

-Destroked seems to be the go to source for the adapter plate, mounts, and other misc stuff. Do most people use the adapter plate that uses a 6.0 starter? or the one that uses a cummins starter.

No info here. I guess go with the one for the starter you already have if the price is the same....

-The guy selling the motor says the pump needs new governor springs which i was planning on upgrading anyways, thinking of having whole ve pump rebuilt while motor is out, I figure it has probably never been rebuilt before. Maybe even send it out to conestoga diesel if he has any interest in working with cummins pumps, that way I know its a quality job. His evidence for it needing new springs is that it will surge on idle sometimes, which sounds like it makes sense, but can anyone confirm it? I have very limited experience with cummins engines.

Makes sense, but have no info to back it up...

- I am only looking to modify it up to 250hp, maybe 300. I live at almost 5000 feet elevation now, and towing up here is a lot tougher then down in Tucson, my nonturbo idi used to be great down there. The rotary pump seems to be more then capable of these numbers, any other reason why i should spring and spend a lot more money for a P pump?

No reason to at 300hp...unless you really want it. I've heard somewhere that a VE pump can handle up to about 400hp.

The entire truck is for sale, and I could pick up the getrag trans, xfer case, and both front and rear axles for an additional 1000 bones, wonder if that route is even worth looking into? Would save me the money of eventually swapping in a dana 60 from a f350 which seem to basically be made of gold.

Keep in mind dodge used passenger drop axles. Ford used drivers drop axles. You could maybe clean an resell some of it though.

Any additional advice would be extremely helpful. Will hopefully pick the motor up in april, and gather the parts over the next month or 2, so it wont happen for a little while but I am trying to account for all possible hurdles before I take the truck out of service, as I am going to have one irritated wifey if she is driving me to work at 4 30 am for a month while the truck is down haha, hoping I can get it done only having the truck down for 2 weekends and one workweek.

I was thinking about buying a newer truck the last month or so (my idi motor has NOT proven reliable to me at all since I have owned it, and at 320k i am ready to get it outta here) but the value of used cars that are beat to **** and have 200k miles seems to be on the rise every day no thanks to "cash for clunkers" and personally I dont think there has ever been a truck as goodlooking as my 92 supercab longbed.

Thanks in advance for any advice! Not including the motor, turbo, accys, etc, im trying to keep the cost of the swap below 3k, if im being unreasonable let me know.

I was told to figure $4-5k for a complete swap, including engine, so your budget sounds fine.

Best answers i can give are in red above...

 

[oregon96psd]

Unless your completely in LOVE with your pickup why not trade it on a little newer one, same body style all the way to 97.....sounds like you've gotten to the point where you are fed up with the idi, and you can find them with reasonable miles for decent prices if you take your time and look right now. I know you said you looked but you have time to look for good deals. Just sounds like a lot of work to get rid of the engine. I think I read somewhere you moved to Colorado, which part?

 

[DesertBen44]

Thanks for rplys so far! I am in grand junction co. I have been all over craigslist for colorado and utah, guess I just can't justify dropping 8k on a decent powerstroke with a list of required repairs haha,

 

[oregon96psd]

Ha, if ya ever get some free time you should head up to Leadville. Very beautiful plus you can say you've been to the highest city in the U.S. I used to work at the mine on top of Fremont pass. That'll give you every reason to get rid of that thing, think it's gutless at 4K feet, take it to 10,152 ft then climb to 11,300 ft!! Lot's of great fishing and hiking up there too.

 

[zebrabeefj40]

I'm builting a very similar truck to what you're thinking of doing.

- Hydroboost - I swapped a hydroboost into my truck too. To keep that I machined a plate to run the stock Ford power steering pump in Cummins motor. That ment I had to rework the Cummins gear to work with my P/S pump. But getting some hoses made is easier if you don't have access to a machine shop.

- ZF5 - I used a Destroked adapter plate as I had read the FordCummins piece wasn't as strong (some folks had the plate fail). The Destroked piece is worth the cash IMHO. I did move the trans back about 2" - you need all the room you can get at the front of the motor for the mechanical fan (it will help that you are buying an early intercooled Dodge Cummins - those have the best fan setup for a conversion). The floor needed cut for shifter clearance on both the trans and t-case shifters. I was able to reuse some of the crossmember holes but still needed to drill 4 new holes in the frame - not hard with good drill bits. IMHO the ZF5 is one of the best engineered manual transmissions in this class of truck. I have no worries about running it behind a Cummins.

- starter - The Destroked plate uses a 6.0 starter. I bought one from a local junkyard. www.car-part.com is how I found the starter. I had to grind the oil pan rail on the block and remove a small amount of material from the starter to get it to bolt up.

I built my own motor mounts using the 7.3 IDI motor-side plates and some steel. The Cummins bolts down to the original IDI cushions. Since the truck is not running yet I don't know if this is a good idea or not. I had new cushions in the truck so I figured I'd try it and see. If it doesn't work out 4BT Swaps has a great thread in the stickies about Cummins motor mounts - I'll build something with fluid-filled mounts based on ideas from there.

In general I would recommend you double your budget - little stuff will nickle and dime you to death. I'm also gonna bet it will take longer than you are allowing time-wise. You will hit snags along the way that will require you to wait for parts. If you don't have time you will be hacking stuff to make it work and have to redo it later to make it right.

Good luck!
Nick

 

[DesertBen44]

Thanks for the input zebra!

I am coming to the same conclusion at least about the time today, trying to pick up a car to drive for when the swap is is drawn out and takes more like a month.

I dont like the sound of having to grind the oil pan rail though... hmm...

Glad to hear the confidence in the zf5, that was my original plan, and probably is still the best bet!

After towing a 5000 pound load around today and being slowed to 25mph on some not so steep grades, I am as determined as ever to let my poor 7.3 nonturbo rest in peace.

 

[zebrabeefj40]

I see in your sig line that you have 4.10 gears. Those are a little too low to work with the Cummins RPM range. At 65-70 mph my truck ran 2400 rpm. The Cummins is happier at 2000 or less so I see a gear swap in your future too (I have 3.55's to put back into my truck once the motor is running).

I wasn't too happy to find out the pan rail got into the way of the starter myself. I ground as far as I was willing in hopes I could use a stock 6.0 starter but still needed to slightly trim the edge of the starter. I wanted to be able to swap in a starter on the road if needed - I still can if I file the edge of the next starter down a little too.

Driveshafts need shortened/stretched too.

I had to flip the exhaust manifold for turbo clearance at the heater box. Not sure how the 12v fits vs. the 24v I have. This means I need to make a different turbo drain line - not a big deal but requires more time.

I came to the same conclusion on the 7.3 as you. It was a good motor but I wanted a better one. I've seen some of the other guys build IDI's and when they're all done the motors end up making the same power as a stock 5.9 starts with for about the same money as it costs to swap a Cummins in. The IDI is a good motor but I don't love it THAT much!

Nick

 

[GOOSE]

I am sure Mel would take care of your pump, he surely is not limited to DB2's Good luck with your conversion, I am not one to down somebody for doing something different. The 6BTA is worthy of the time and money that you are investing. Good luck with your build.

 

[Darrin Tosh]

I see in your sig line that you have 4.10 gears. Those are a little too low to work with the Cummins RPM range. At 65-70 mph my truck ran 2400 rpm. The Cummins is happier at 2000 or less so I see a gear swap in your future too (I have 3.55's to put back into my truck once the motor is running).

I agree, however with the ZF5, and Gear Venders Overdrive, That Cummins might be happy with that setup, Still have the 4:10s for pulling and the GV for Highway Speeds.

That Said, I swapped to 3:55's from 4:10s after my Cummins Swap but that is with a C6 and Gear Vendors, Still would like another OD,..