Question about injection pump timing 87 Ford f350 6.9 C6 trans 3.55 gears.

[Rob2885]

First of all my thanks to everyone who posts on this site.I am completely new to diesel trucks and this site and all its members have been so helpful teaching me about IDI diesel engines.I have read many of the articles about how to time your injection pump both static and with tools.I have replaced all my injectors in the hopes to solving my problem,my truck seems to run fine going down the road but when I am at idle it seems to shake quit a bit,like if I were to put a glass of water on the seat it would spill all over.Reading over articles on this site I began to look into wether my pump might be timed wrong causing the vibration,I replaced all the lines,tees,and O-rings,injectors,and check for possible air intrusion from the tank to the pump with no success.As I began to inspect my pump I looked down at the gear cover and pump flang to see where the timing marks were and I noticed that pump is actually retarded,meaning the pump is leaning about a dimes width past the mark on the gear cover towards the driver side of the engine bay.So my question is this,is it supposed be retarded or should the timing marks at least align together then possibly as the pump wears need to be timed advanced towards the passanger side???I have a c6 trans and 3.55 gears in the rear and I will admit the truck does not get very good diesel mileage.Could the pump being retarded be causing this?If I were to loosen the pump and at the very least align the timing marks would this be dangerous?At least until I find someone who can dynamically time it.Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[79jasper]

Should be advanced.
As parts wear, say the injectors wear more than the pump, they would pop sooner, therefore creating more advance.
Throwing new injectors in will for sure retard the timing from what it was.
Give it a go and see what happens. Can always set it back where it was, or just align the marks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[youngunbd]

Make sure to time it with the engine OFF

Clock it using a punch to see where its at now, then try retarding it further or advancing it a bit. Pretty much test it a bunch of different ways. Change it, run it, drive it and leave it where you like it

 

[Rob2885]

Hey thanks a lot guys for the help guys.I just have a feeling that it is retarded too much because even when I floor it I never see one bit of smoke from the exhaust,it seems to be really lacking in power when I have a load in the back,and seems to be struggling to stay running at idle with a lot of shaking.The engine has over 180k miles and doesent burn a drop of oil,and from the looks of it never been abused.This is the first diesel vehicle I have ever owned and am learning quickly.My friend has a powerstroke and sure it may have more power but I just love the sound of these old IDI's they sound so much tougher.The pump is retarded towards the drivers side and I am going to at the very least re-align the timing marks and see if that makes a difference,the only thing I am worried about is chewing up those brand new motorcraft berus I just put in there by advancing it too much.All eight of those plugs sure took a bite out my wallet and I don't want to lose them.I really wish I could find a ZF-5 to put behind my engine like you guys have but those are hard to come by,then I would be getting great mileage with that overdrive.Thanks again guys and I will post up my results on how it went.

 

[youngunbd]

The timing marks on the pump and cover are pretty much "suggestions" They get you in the ballpark and let you figure out the rest. If your pump has 180k on it, that might be doing it too, their rated life is mostly just 100k. Mine made it 165k but then I blew the pump and 4 injectors all in one drive.

I'm confused about your comment of burning up your beru's by too much advancing? Remember these are diesel's, they work on compression not a spark. The GP's are just to pre-heat before starting. If running too advanced can chew up glow plugs then I am missing that too heh

I have a zf-5 behind my 6.9 with 3.55's too, and damn is she quick. I just made a 500 mile move and it was an easy drive, except for being in third on some of the steep grades just watching my temp gauge climb but our trailer was loaded to the brim heh

 

[Rob2885]

Oh yeah im not sure if that's true about the glowplugs I read an article somewhere on the internet that if the pump is too advanced the glow plug tips will burn off?not sure if its true but wouldn't want to test the theory haha.Yeah those ZF-5 trans are as rare as gold down here in florida,been trying to keep an eye out for one on craigslist but no luck.The c6 I have behind mine is bulletproof,but with no overdrive it kills your mileage.My injection pump is the stock pump im sure,so that might be the culprit aswell.What irks me is how hard it is to find someone who can dynamically time it with proper tools,Ive called around and cant find anyone who has them?I used to have a 94 ford f250 with a 351w(Great engine,but a Gas Hog!) and a 4.10 rear end with the dreaded E4OD trans(could never get that trans to work right!)and sold it and got this truck and love it.I think your right about the pump that its about time to replace it,so little time,so little money,but in the end probably worth it.

 

[youngunbd]

Yeah send an email to Justin at idiperformance.com Gotta keep bugging him too, he is a busy guy but will definitely help out. You'll get a better pump for what most people charge to rebuild it stock, he'll do injectors too. Either an overdrive unit or a ZF5 is your best bet.

One other thing that came to mind was your RPM at idle. The module that controls your high idle can also be turned out further to increase your RPM at idle, it should be 650 RPM at least. Dipping bellow that could cause your vibrations?

 

[Rob2885]

Hey thanks for the info,I definitely want to know the pump was rebuilt right,and that's cool that he will rebuild injectors aswell.Yeah my fast idle solenoid does work when I start the truck up it takes the idle up to about 900 or so then when it drops off it hits right around 650 like you said so I think that is adjusted right.I do think the pump might just be old and tired,because I am pretty positive its never been changed because the soot and grease its coated with lol.The only two overdrive options available for 6.9 and 7.3 engines are the ZF-5 and the E4OD and just from personally experience the E4OD is a nightmare,I had one rebuilt twice and couldn't get it to shift right.I like oldschool mechanics when everything wasn't controlled by a computer or electronically.Just more things to break in my opinion.My friend tried to install a new stereo in his brand new Chevey 1500,must have crossed a wire because the damn thing turned into a big paper weight,he had to get it towed back to the dealership,took three weeks to fix it!

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

your issue sounds like bad fuel injectors,not a timing issue.typical symptom of bad injectors is poor performance and bad idle,making the truck shake.i prefer stanadyne injectors.

 

[riotwarrior]

Welcome to Oilburners!

Take the time to read through the FAQ, Tech articles and Hall of Shame for some good info.

Mel, aka Agnem is his username owns www.conestogadiesel.com and builds some fine pumps and offers injectors and other services.

Russ, aka Typ4 is his username does injectors, cams, and pumps too, both of these guys are great to deal with just PM them and they'll get back to you.

Sounds like you may want to adjust some timing, so take a look here

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...tment-for-timing-purposes&highlight=IP+timing

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...OR-TIMING-LIGHTS-Tech-101&highlight=IP+timing

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...1-TIming-tape-and-timing!&highlight=IP+timing

Those should help you out. If you like and don't have the tools, Gary aka Icanfixall is his username rents timing meters for this purpose. They are great tools and I have one personally.

Again, welcome to OB

Al

 

[Rob2885]

Wow thanks for all the help guys and I will definitely read all the articles.I am fairly certain its either the pump or injectors,I did a real thurough job checking for air intrusion,I even attached some clear hose to watch for air bubbles and seen nothing.The injectors I bought were remanufactured so it is very possible one is not popping right and causing a misfire.I don't mean any offense by bad talking E4OD transmissions,I just think they hate me hehe.I always thought a diesel bronco would be an awesome idea I bet that thing is a diesel sippin monster!I will definitely look into getting a new pump because I am almost certain my truck still has the one it drove off the lot with,and maybe some better injectors aswell.Im tired of bouncing around the cab at a stop light!hehe.Again thanks a lot for all the help guys.

 

[icanfixall]

Welcome to the forum. I am the member that rents timing meters to help others keep their engines running correctly. Its a shame nobody will time our engines any more so I invested several thousand dollars buying meters and helping many members.
A good re-builder can make an E4OD trans built proof. they also need the tps changed about every 75 thousand miles and the voltage on the center wire must be .96 to 1.2 volts at idle engine warmed up and not running. Any digital voltmeter will work on this.

 

[OLDBULL8]

In 27 yrs with the odom showing ~18,000, thats only about 6700 miles per year, I would bet it's 280.000+, clean the IP off, if it's painted gray it's the OEM. Don't be afraid to advance it, but do it with a hot engine, when it starts to cackle a little, your probably close to the correct timing. Do NOT advance the IP with the engine running.

 

[Rob2885]

Hehe yeah the miles on my truck are either 180k or 280k not sure wich but I would bet on the latter.Yes I am interested in renting a timing meter icanfixall,but I think I am going to invest in a new injection pump first because I bet the one I have on there has never been changed.How much do you charge to rent one?I do belive the E4OD has potential if rebuilt properly but I was low on money at the time and did a budget rebuild.I think I read somewhere that the design was base on the c6 and they built overdrive into it?I once helped remove an E4OD out of a friends truck and man are those things heavy!

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

yes thats right.the E40D/4R100 are C6 based trans.they can be build up for massively high power diesel trucks far beyond the hottest of idi build up capabilities.it doesn't comes cheap though,as a top end build can cost more than the average price of a whole idi truck.hence the common and much more affordable zf5 manual swap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C6_transmission