older mercedes td info?

[Michael Fowler]

Warden, and others,
re: Forums at mercedesshop.com
The climate at the Diesel Form is OK; its only the hate-filled political posters that fill the Off Topic thread that should be avoided. I used to post OT a lot; now, I post much less. There is some debate, but mostly hate-filled rants. You cannot have intelligent discussion and the possibility of persuading someone with all the purple rhetoric that fills that place. A lot of very frustrated people there.
I used to think that the prohibition against political and religious discussions was too restrictive; now I appreciate that restriction.

 

[Michael Fowler]

Did I kill this thread? No further posts in six weeks?

 

[towcat]

its not you.
its from the the lack of diesel MBZ happenings around here. But that may change in a few weeks if feul prices stay up where they are at. I am going to have to get the '79 out of mothballs and put her on the road.

 

[The Warden]

its not you.
its from the the lack of diesel MBZ happenings around here.

What he said I'm looking at another M-B, though...not certain if I'm going to buy it or not. But, it's in good shape and the price is right...the real question is whether or not the engine runs (the starter was dead when I looked at it the first time; there should be a replacement starter in it by the time I get down there...but that's for another thread). If I do buy the car, I'll make a post on here talking about everything.

BTW, Michael, I should probably clarify on my original statement about the MBShop forums...actually, my biggest issue was the attitude of many people in the Diesel forum, where many questions were answered only by a curt "Do a search". Maybe this has changed in recent months, but back in January, it was pretty bad, at least from my perspective. I mean, I understand that many topics have been exhaustively discussed in the past and that reading the past topics will help educate a person, but there are people (such as myself) who have trouble with searching for various reasons, and in any event, the attitude struck me as rude. In addition, I'm of the opinion that even seemingly mundane topics should be discussed at least somewhat regularly...first to keep them fresh in peoples' minds (think "broken glow plug tip" for our IDI's, and that many newbies wouldn't think to look for something like that, and therefore may not find out until it's too late), and second because sometimes something new will come about. Add to that the fact that, in the last couple of months I was active over there, it seemed like any post I made was ignored by nearly everyone...hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from (although whether you agree or not is, of course, a different story).

Like I said, though, MBShop is still a good wealth of information...one of my dreams would be to try and get some of that information over here as well, but I don't know how to attract people over here from other online sources without SPAMming them...and I don't know very many M-B owners offline (actually, that goes with IDI owners as well and, honestly, most people at all). Also, while I know a bit about these cars (at least enough to have kept my 123 going for the past 3 years), I wouldn't call myself an authority by any means...

There's a question for us all, to get this board active...how do you attract people over here?

 

[dave85]

You know towcat and me. Who else would you need??

Dave

 

[The Warden]

You know towcat and me. Who else would you need??

You have a very good point there...

(although my intended point was that I'm not very good at recruiting people to this site, and while that isnt a big deal for the thriving IDI board, we desperately need more people on the M-B board)

 

[Michael Fowler]

I think the question is more like--" How do we attract people of the right sort over here"?
By "right sort" I mean non-political gear heads. Not intended to discriminate in any other way--but sure to be misinterpreted by "the wrong sort"

 

[The Warden]

I think the question is more like--" How do we attract people of the right sort over here"?
By "right sort" I mean non-political gear heads. Not intended to discriminate in any other way--but sure to be misinterpreted by "the wrong sort"

I actually understand what you mean, although I would amend that to say "non-vocally-political gear heads". I actually have a very political mind, but I try and keep my trap shut about it unless I'm provoked (particularly since, especially on sites like this, I'm almost invariably in the minority).

People like BHD on MBShop, OTOH...yeah, if I understand you correctly, he's a perfect example of what you're referring to...and if I never see a post of his again, I'll be grateful for it...

 

[Jarlaxle]

Minority, maybe, Warden...but not unique. I think we have plenty of views in common.

Is there any truth to the rumor that rebuilding the tranny (auto) on a 300SD turbo is a wallet-shattering experience?

Also, uhh...you say that all US 300 TDs have auto trannies, power everything, auto climate control, and air suspension? Then, uhh, *** does my friend have?! It's a tan 1981 300 TDT wagon (~410,000 miles), with the 3.0 I-5 turbo, manual gearbox, metric dash (Canadian car?), crank windows, no power locks, no sunroof, no third seat, no air suspension, and regular manual HVAC. It replaced a 1977 240D sedan...which, come to think of it, also didn't have many options except the auto tranny (putt...putt...).

 

[towcat]

Is there any truth to the rumor that rebuilding the tranny (auto) on a 300SD turbo is a wallet-shattering experience?

.

not on the older ones. I get them done for less than a grand including all the bands and getting newer drums. Just for a frame of reference, I just did a '97C230 trans....hold on to your hats....3k my cost out the door....there's known bad design parts in the trans that must be updated. Normal customer price is 4k.
As far as what your friend has, the metric dash is the tip off that it is a non-US car. Very possible canadian since those don't have the fed changeover (5mph bumpers, door side impact beams, US lighting, US 5mph bumpers, and the electrica)l niceities like most US sold MBZ has.

 

[The Warden]

Minority, maybe, Warden...but not unique. I think we have plenty of views in common.

I think you're right on that mark...lions need to eat too, right?

Is there any truth to the rumor that rebuilding the tranny (auto) on a 300SD turbo is a wallet-shattering experience?

I don't think so...I've never had to have an M-B slushbox rebuilt so I can't speak from direct experience, but I don't think it'll completely break the bank. There may be an issue with finding a shop that doesn't have the "He has an M-B; therefore, he can afford any price I name and won't look elsewhere" attitude, but beyond that I don't think there are any major additional expenses. Also...these trannies are vacuum-modulated and can be sensitive to cable adjustments, so if you have a vacuum problem (not uncommon on these cars since everything from the ACC to the door locks to the engine shut-off are vacuum-controlled, and one leak can mess up the entire system) or a cable that's out of adjustment, the tranny may act as though it's on its last legs but the problem may be relatively easily fixed. Are you asking hypothetically, or do you have a car (or someone you know have a car) that's having problems? If the latter, what symptoms are you seeing?

Also, uhh...you say that all US 300 TDs have auto trannies, power everything, auto climate control, and air suspension? Then, uhh, *** does my friend have?! It's a tan 1981 300 TDT wagon (~410,000 miles), with the 3.0 I-5 turbo, manual gearbox, metric dash (Canadian car?), crank windows, no power locks, no sunroof, no third seat, no air suspension, and regular manual HVAC. It replaced a 1977 240D sedan...which, come to think of it, also didn't have many options except the auto tranny (putt...putt...).

Are you certain that you friend's TD is a turbo? ...if so, almost certainly, either someone installed the turbo on an n/a engine or replaced the entire engine with a turbo unit (which is a better idea from a longevity standpoint; n/a 617's have different pistons and no oil spray nozzles cooling the pistons)....and if the turbo engine is factory, your friend has a very rare car. The car's almost certainly a gray-market car that was originally sold in Europe and was later transported to North America (as opposed to a made-for-North-America car like I was referencing when I said that all U.S.-spec 300D's are "loaded"). You said the speedo's still in km; that probably means that it went to Canada as opposed to the U.S. ...and I don't know how Canadian laws handle Euro-spec cars. Does the car have Euro headlights and/or Euro bumpers? In case you don't know the difference, this car has a Euro front bumper and Euro headlights, and this car has U.S. DOT spec bumpers and headlights. BTW, most gray-market cars that go into the U.S. generally retain the Euro bumpers, but have DOT headlights retrofitted in place...but you can buy the Euro headlights to put on a U.S. spec car, and this is actually fairly common since the Euro lights put out much better lighting than the DOT junk.

Finding a gray-market Euro car is rare but not unheard of...BUT, I don't believe the W123 was ever sold in Europe with the turbocharged OM617 5 cyl, and if it was, it was a very rare option. Hence my comment that your friend either has a needle-in-a-haystack car or has gone through an engine replacement. I have a friend who has a gray-market Euro 300D...it's an '84 model year and has a naturally aspirated 617, manual-crank windows, manual climate controls (with no a/c), and essentially no "options" whatsoever...but, again, you won't find that sort of setup in a U.S.-spec W123 except the 240D (and "bare-bones" U.S.-spec 240D's are the norm rather than the exception; in fact, I don't think you could even get the ACC setup in a 240D, although you could get power windows and a power sunroof).

The lack of a third seat on your friend's car isn't a surprise; actually, many U.S. spec wagons didn't have it either. The third seat is considered to be a coveted and fairly rare option, and there are people who'll pay a premium for an otherwise-"normal" 300TD with that third seat. How certain are you about the lack of power locks? AFAIK, EVERY M-B since the early '70's have the vacuum-actuated door locks (where locking the driver's door will in turn lock every other lock in the car)...if your friend's car's door locks don't act like this, maybe someone disconnected the vacuum fittings, or there's a major leak. Are there any other indications of vacuum issues? As mentioned, the manual trans, hand-crank windows, manual HVAC, the "normal" suspension (U.S. wagons actually have hydraulic, not air, self-leveling suspension), etc. are classic give-aways of a Euro car. Do you have any pics of the wagon? I'd love to see what she looks like...and make sure your friend takes good care of the car; if he ever decides to get rid of it, it would probably go for a lot... *drool*

 

[Jarlaxle]

Hmm...that would explain a lot. Like, say, the "Rammstein AFB" stuff he found in the spare tire well, the USAF stickers on the quarter glass, and the old military ID card that somehow got lost under the carpet. I doubt it's Canadian...simply because I've never seen a Canadian-bound car without English/French on all labels, which this lacks...however, it has English and GERMAN. It does have the Euro bumper & regular US headlights (and a set of Hella hi-output pencil beam driving lights). The P. O. said it had metric-sized (390mm) wheels on it when he got it, which he replaced with regular 15" wheels.

The badge is unique--"300TDT" on the left side of the rear gate (every other wagon I see has "300TD", and "TURBODIESEL" on the right.

The engine has enough crud on it that I would be willing to bet a considerable amount of money that neither it nor the turbo have ever been out of the car. I am 100% certain it is the original block (VIN-verified).

Hmmmmmm...how plausible does this sound: Euro-market car, purchased and later shipped "home" (he bought it from a guy in, IIRC, Kentucky) by a member of the military (I'm guessing air force).

As for the locks--I'm going to go with "entire system long since disconnected". Everything else on the car works perfectly.

He takes very good care of it...he's had it for ~6 years, and recently did The Interstate Loop with it (west on I-90, south on I-5, east on I-10, north on I-95). The 25-year-old car made the entire run without a single hiccup, including a couple of 100+MPH runs through the desert in 125+ degree heat with the A/C on.

 

[The Warden]

Hmm...that would explain a lot. Like, say, the "Rammstein AFB" stuff he found in the spare tire well, the USAF stickers on the quarter glass, and the old military ID card that somehow got lost under the carpet. I doubt it's Canadian...simply because I've never seen a Canadian-bound car without English/French on all labels, which this lacks...however, it has English and GERMAN. It does have the Euro bumper & regular US headlights (and a set of Hella hi-output pencil beam driving lights). The P. O. said it had metric-sized (390mm) wheels on it when he got it, which he replaced with regular 15" wheels.

I meant, an Euro-market car that was imported to Canada instead of the U.S. That's the only reason I can think of that a metric speedo would still be in the car (unless someone put one in for whatever reason). Metric oil pressure/water temp gauges (degrees C and bars) are actually normal, even on most U.S. cars after 1980 or so. My '85 has metric markings on the oil pressure and water temp gauges; the '79 300SD I'm looking at has the markings in degrees F and PSI.

The badge is unique--"300TDT" on the left side of the rear gate (every other wagon I see has "300TD", and "TURBODIESEL" on the right.

Not having the "TURBODIESEL" (or DIESEL) emblem on the starboard side is normal on a Euro car; the "D" in the model number was enough for Eurpoeans to know it's a diesel (since diesel cars are more common over there than here). That said..."300TDT"?!? It actually SAYS that?!? PLEASE get a picture of that if you can...this is the first I've ever heard of a car that's actually badged that way, and I've heard others say that it's never been done. Be nice to have a picture to refute what they've said

The engine has enough crud on it that I would be willing to bet a considerable amount of money that neither it nor the turbo have ever been out of the car. I am 100% certain it is the original block (VIN-verified).

Based on what you said above, I believe you...I'm still very surprised, though. I've heard people say that turbo 617's were never sold in Europe...I guess this proves them wrong Like I said, your friend has a VERY rare bird...heck, I may as well ask. Is the car a 4 or a 5 speed? Even with the 4 speed, there are people who would kill for this car...and, if it's a 5 speed, there are people who would kill their mother and their first-born for this car.

Hmmmmmm...how plausible does this sound: Euro-market car, purchased and later shipped "home" (he bought it from a guy in, IIRC, Kentucky) by a member of the military (I'm guessing air force).

Very plausible. Actually, I think most Euro-market cars got here as a result of purchases by people in either military service or the diplomatic corps. The guy I mentioned with the '84 Euro 300D bought his from the original owners, who bought the car in Germany while stationed there with the State Department and had it brought out here 3 or 4 years later when they were reassigned.

As for the locks--I'm going to go with "entire system long since disconnected". Everything else on the car works perfectly.

Makes sense...I would guess that there was an issue and whoever owned the car at the time decided to just disable it altogether instead of repairing it. With how much of a headache vacuum issues can be, I don't blame him in the slightest.

He takes very good care of it...he's had it for ~6 years, and recently did The Interstate Loop with it (west on I-90, south on I-5, east on I-10, north on I-95). The 25-year-old car made the entire run without a single hiccup, including a couple of 100+MPH runs through the desert in 125+ degree heat with the A/C on.

Sounds like a typical M-B Very cool!! When I bought my car, the car had sat in Dallas for a few months unused. I lit it off, drove it around town for one day, then drove home to CA (wound up taking a detour to San Antonio, then took the 10 back west)...car never even hiccuped. With 275K on the odo, if it weren't for the front suspension needing rebuilt and the body damage (one dent from before I got the car, then my loving gf killed the left front fender and turn signal lens ) and various minor issues, the car would be in pretty good shape

 

[Full Monte]

Hi Gang,

I'm new here with only a few posts. I'm Monte1 "over there". I know what you mean about ranting politicos showing up on these forums. I get tired of it too.

Regarding Mercedes...I bought an '87 300D turbo. That's the 6 cyl. with the 3 liter and aluminum head. I have a friend who has owned about 12 different MBZ diesels over the years. His opinion is that the '87 300 series was the best of the older models because of power and performance. The only caveat is the engines tend to blow head gaskets. They fixed the problem with later head designs. Mine has one of the later heads, so the previous owner has already fixed that problem. I have driven the earlier 300D turbos and I can tell you, there is no comparison in performance. The '87 will make the earlier ones seem like they're standing in a traffic jam. The original head has a "14" in the numbers on the head above #2 cyl., whereas newer heads have a "17" or higher number. These cars are hard to find. I looked for over a year and had to drive 100 miles to buy mine. And there were 25 guys waiting in line hoping I wouldn't buy it. Good luck with your search!

 

[Full Monte]

Yeah...I just bought a Benz and already I'm noticing that the drains at the corners of the windshield attract leaves. Any hints for doing a deep cleaning to get rid of whatever is in the depths of the drain?