junk
Full Access Member
Excellent! update. Really appreciate it.
Links didn't work for me though.
Links didn't work for me though.
Not your Average Dana 60 Swap
- Thread starter bike-maker
- Start date
bike-maker
Full Access Member
Fixed 'em
LCAM-01XA
Full Access Member
For the master, try the factory 1-5/16" F-Superduty unit, I'm thinking you will like it.
The SAE 45-deg flare is how our Sagipump is hooked up to the HB feed line as well. Only since we're using an aftermarket line we were able to chop the Ford-specific swivel end off and still had enough straight line left for both the line nut and the double-flare tool to fit on (so no trip to the hydraulics shop needed).
However, I do have to wonder why you blew your pressure line apart. I seem to recall seeing somewhere the specs for factory F-Superduty C2 pumps pushing almost 1600 psi, and they certainly do not explode the same line your killed. Kinda makes me wonder what your line pressure is that it was able to do that... When you dropped the Sagipump in, did you mess with its pressure-regulating valve? If it has any external shims under its "nut" cap if you pull them off it should put your line pressure at what is apparently considered to be the max safe pressure for these things (around 1500 psi IIRC). Some folks also shim the small spring that lives inside the valve, not sure that's a good idea (for fear of results like those from your first two attempts), we skipped it on our truck and just pulled the external shims off and it works decent. Still needs help when the tires are in a rut or something, but that's to be expected, and nothing hydro-assist cannot solve.
By the way your remote reservoir setup works because the main flow of the system is still returned to the pump reservoir directly - the HB unit actually moves quite little fluid. If for whatever reason you were to return both the steering and the HB flows into a remote reservoir there's a chance the pump would suck the main hose shut if it's not rated for vacuum applications (as experienced by some Pirates). What you got going on works well tho, it's the same setup we had at one point in our IDI.
Offtopic, but York for the OBA? What's your oil mister setup, do you happen to have a part # for that elbow and whatever else you used to make the nozzle? Also how big is your drain? And finally where does your A/C compressor live now? Oh and btw idk if you've ran the OBA in near 100% duty cycles, but the plumbing coming out of the compressor can get real hot, and that orange vinyl hose kinda hates that and gets soft and sometimes blows off the fittings. We got like 6ft worth of braided stainless hose with JIC fittings to dissipate that heat before hooking up to the vinyl hose down on the frame rail. Gonna switch it all to air brake tubing some time soon, the vinyl hose annoys me quite a bit.
The SAE 45-deg flare is how our Sagipump is hooked up to the HB feed line as well. Only since we're using an aftermarket line we were able to chop the Ford-specific swivel end off and still had enough straight line left for both the line nut and the double-flare tool to fit on (so no trip to the hydraulics shop needed).
However, I do have to wonder why you blew your pressure line apart. I seem to recall seeing somewhere the specs for factory F-Superduty C2 pumps pushing almost 1600 psi, and they certainly do not explode the same line your killed. Kinda makes me wonder what your line pressure is that it was able to do that... When you dropped the Sagipump in, did you mess with its pressure-regulating valve? If it has any external shims under its "nut" cap if you pull them off it should put your line pressure at what is apparently considered to be the max safe pressure for these things (around 1500 psi IIRC). Some folks also shim the small spring that lives inside the valve, not sure that's a good idea (for fear of results like those from your first two attempts), we skipped it on our truck and just pulled the external shims off and it works decent. Still needs help when the tires are in a rut or something, but that's to be expected, and nothing hydro-assist cannot solve.
By the way your remote reservoir setup works because the main flow of the system is still returned to the pump reservoir directly - the HB unit actually moves quite little fluid. If for whatever reason you were to return both the steering and the HB flows into a remote reservoir there's a chance the pump would suck the main hose shut if it's not rated for vacuum applications (as experienced by some Pirates). What you got going on works well tho, it's the same setup we had at one point in our IDI.
Offtopic, but York for the OBA? What's your oil mister setup, do you happen to have a part # for that elbow and whatever else you used to make the nozzle? Also how big is your drain? And finally where does your A/C compressor live now? Oh and btw idk if you've ran the OBA in near 100% duty cycles, but the plumbing coming out of the compressor can get real hot, and that orange vinyl hose kinda hates that and gets soft and sometimes blows off the fittings. We got like 6ft worth of braided stainless hose with JIC fittings to dissipate that heat before hooking up to the vinyl hose down on the frame rail. Gonna switch it all to air brake tubing some time soon, the vinyl hose annoys me quite a bit.
bike-maker
Full Access Member
1. I've been researching a newer (SuperDuty) master cylinder can be retrofitted. 1-5/16" is good, but I'm going for bigger...
2. Re-flaring the stock line was my original plan, both the 2 lines I had weren't long enough to flare. I was left with less than an inch of tube after the fitting was cut off, which didn't leave enough room for the nut and my flaring tool.
3. I took the pump apart and put new seals in it, but didn't change anything. After the first line blew apart, I think it was just defective. The little clip that holds it all together didn't seem quite right...The second one; it was an old hose that already leaked like a sieve, and I had previously beat/pried on that nut trying to remove it to change the O-ring out. So a brand new quality hose probably would have held up just fine, but it's still a poor design compared to either of the 2 designs that came on the Saginaw pumps.
4. Yes, a York 210 for OBA. I bought the whole setup from a friend at work, so Im not sure exactly what components are used. It's not a mister, just an oil separator. It has a ball valve on the bottom of the container, and a 1/4" air line that goes back to the York case. So when it starts getting full, I just open the valve and let the built up oil drain back into the York. After the separator I put a filter dryer in, because I already had one collecting dust.
The orange air line is in fact the finest 3/8" PVC junk the Harbor Freight has to offer. I've never had any issues with the line heating up; all I've really used it for is inflating the air bags or airing up inner tubes at the river. If I start airing up tires, running air tools, etc. I'm already aware of the issues with the lines getting overheated and failing. Tried rubber hose a temporary fix on my shop compressor....failed within minutes in violent fashion. I agree that air brake tubing would be the way to go here.
The York sits right in place of the factory AC compressor. My truck is now without AC. The intercooler sealed that deal.
I welded some extra brackets on to the stock compressor bracket to adapt to the York using the existing belt tensioning setup and AC belt.
2. Re-flaring the stock line was my original plan, both the 2 lines I had weren't long enough to flare. I was left with less than an inch of tube after the fitting was cut off, which didn't leave enough room for the nut and my flaring tool.
3. I took the pump apart and put new seals in it, but didn't change anything. After the first line blew apart, I think it was just defective. The little clip that holds it all together didn't seem quite right...The second one; it was an old hose that already leaked like a sieve, and I had previously beat/pried on that nut trying to remove it to change the O-ring out. So a brand new quality hose probably would have held up just fine, but it's still a poor design compared to either of the 2 designs that came on the Saginaw pumps.
4. Yes, a York 210 for OBA. I bought the whole setup from a friend at work, so Im not sure exactly what components are used. It's not a mister, just an oil separator. It has a ball valve on the bottom of the container, and a 1/4" air line that goes back to the York case. So when it starts getting full, I just open the valve and let the built up oil drain back into the York. After the separator I put a filter dryer in, because I already had one collecting dust.
The orange air line is in fact the finest 3/8" PVC junk the Harbor Freight has to offer. I've never had any issues with the line heating up; all I've really used it for is inflating the air bags or airing up inner tubes at the river. If I start airing up tires, running air tools, etc. I'm already aware of the issues with the lines getting overheated and failing. Tried rubber hose a temporary fix on my shop compressor....failed within minutes in violent fashion. I agree that air brake tubing would be the way to go here.
The York sits right in place of the factory AC compressor. My truck is now without AC. The intercooler sealed that deal.
I welded some extra brackets on to the stock compressor bracket to adapt to the York using the existing belt tensioning setup and AC belt.
BR3
Full Access Member
Sweet, I was really needing that Spicer yoke number way back in this thread. Didn't wanna have to have a custom driveshaft just yet. Currently in the process of what I think to be the first ever dually version of this swap. Very similar situation to you bike maker, save for dually related issues. And the that I'm going with a 6 inch lift kit up front and a monster 12 leave SD/obs leaf pack in The rear in one feel swoop.
Your axles look sweet too man, good work on the paint. Sweet build and great details, always helps to have some valid info, as all I've seen on brakes were exactly wrong as well haha! Great job man!
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Your axles look sweet too man, good work on the paint. Sweet build and great details, always helps to have some valid info, as all I've seen on brakes were exactly wrong as well haha! Great job man!
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BR3
Full Access Member
On second thought, I wonder if there is any difference between the Dana 80 and the Sterling as far as yoke sizes. I'll have to do some research with that part number and see
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bike-maker
Full Access Member
When I was digging around for driveshaft parts, I do remember scoping out a dually with a Dana rear end. From what I remember, the whole driveshaft was different, so I wouldn't be ordering that yoke yet.
The front axles are the same - duallies just use different unit bearings. Unless you scored a true super 60 (if it has 4.30 or steeper gears). They are different from the inner C's out, but still bolt up just the same.
The front axles are the same - duallies just use different unit bearings. Unless you scored a true super 60 (if it has 4.30 or steeper gears). They are different from the inner C's out, but still bolt up just the same.
BR3
Full Access Member
I'm not a hundred percent sure that they actually have different unit bearings, because I am 100 percent sure that the only thing I need to go from a single axle to a dually in the front is the spacer that bolts on it from the factory. found those already.
Good to know about the yoke. Maybe I'll call Spicer and ask haha
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Good to know about the yoke. Maybe I'll call Spicer and ask haha
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bike-maker
Full Access Member
So it's been a while......figured I would add a couple words about how the old girl has been doing.
I have now had a chance to use the truck in all of the various ways / conditions Ive set it up for.
The truck's main job; haul the family over to the dunes in the summer, and head up to the mountains for skiing in the winter. Hauls a slide in camper for both that's right at 2000 lb. dry.....probably add at least 500 pounds of junk that the wife and kids throw in there.
So the setup for going to the dunes; camper mounted on the truck, and a little double axle all aluminum trailer for the sand toys.
Average weights I've recorded:
Front axle:4600 lb. (which just happens to be the GVW of the older Dana 60)
Rear axle: 5500 lb.
Trailer:2000 lb. with maybe 100 pounds of tongue weight.
For a grand total of a hair over 12k pounds GCVW.
The 3.55 gears to me are just about perfect for this combination. Naturally aspirated would be a whole different story - towing that big 5er we used to have would be too.
The trailer doesn't have brakes, so those big Super duty brakes are all I have to slow down the whole 12k pound mess. And they do so quite nicely.
For the winter months, we are a skiing family, and the local hill has a row of RV hookups. So I've gotten the chance to make multiple trips with and without the camper on the truck. The road up to the mountains I take is fairly treacherous - really curvy, 6% grades, cracks/potholes everywhere, never plowed, trees falling across the road on a fairly regular basis, even had to turn back once because a whole section of the road just slid off the hill (HWY 20 headed east out of Sweethome). So it's a pretty good test of the trucks abilities.
This truck did fairly well in the snow before, and now it does even better. It was a bit unexpected, but now makes sense. The suspension before was stiff enough that the tires were getting bounced around on the uneven surfaces - especially if the road was wash-boarded out from chains. So it has better traction now that the tires are just in better contact with the ground.
So overall driving impressions after almost a year?
Well I've gotten used to it now, so it's not as noticeable as it was in the beginning, but....
Best part is still the increased turning radius. I had 35's on my truck before all of this not because I went off road, but because I was always driving over curbs, bushes, etc trying to turn the dang thing around.
2nd best is the brakes. They just work awesome. Smooth as silk even stopping 12k pounds.
And lastly the ride quality - which is probably the major reason most people would consider this swap. It still rides like a truck, just not like the old suspension. I don't feel beat up after driving it a couple hours. And with the extra weight of the camper on it, it rides like a frickin' marshmallow.
So I've been chipping away at a few of the things I mentioned earlier in the thread, but haven't done much cause, well, it just works. And quite nicely at that.
Was it worth the expense/time/hassle? Hell yes. If you would have asked me that question when I was in the middle of the swap, I probably would have said no. Same answers I would have given during the diesel conversion, or adding the turbo, or the intercooler, or.......
I have now had a chance to use the truck in all of the various ways / conditions Ive set it up for.
The truck's main job; haul the family over to the dunes in the summer, and head up to the mountains for skiing in the winter. Hauls a slide in camper for both that's right at 2000 lb. dry.....probably add at least 500 pounds of junk that the wife and kids throw in there.
So the setup for going to the dunes; camper mounted on the truck, and a little double axle all aluminum trailer for the sand toys.
Average weights I've recorded:
Front axle:4600 lb. (which just happens to be the GVW of the older Dana 60)
Rear axle: 5500 lb.
Trailer:2000 lb. with maybe 100 pounds of tongue weight.
For a grand total of a hair over 12k pounds GCVW.
The 3.55 gears to me are just about perfect for this combination. Naturally aspirated would be a whole different story - towing that big 5er we used to have would be too.
The trailer doesn't have brakes, so those big Super duty brakes are all I have to slow down the whole 12k pound mess. And they do so quite nicely.
For the winter months, we are a skiing family, and the local hill has a row of RV hookups. So I've gotten the chance to make multiple trips with and without the camper on the truck. The road up to the mountains I take is fairly treacherous - really curvy, 6% grades, cracks/potholes everywhere, never plowed, trees falling across the road on a fairly regular basis, even had to turn back once because a whole section of the road just slid off the hill (HWY 20 headed east out of Sweethome). So it's a pretty good test of the trucks abilities.
This truck did fairly well in the snow before, and now it does even better. It was a bit unexpected, but now makes sense. The suspension before was stiff enough that the tires were getting bounced around on the uneven surfaces - especially if the road was wash-boarded out from chains. So it has better traction now that the tires are just in better contact with the ground.
So overall driving impressions after almost a year?
Well I've gotten used to it now, so it's not as noticeable as it was in the beginning, but....
Best part is still the increased turning radius. I had 35's on my truck before all of this not because I went off road, but because I was always driving over curbs, bushes, etc trying to turn the dang thing around.
2nd best is the brakes. They just work awesome. Smooth as silk even stopping 12k pounds.
And lastly the ride quality - which is probably the major reason most people would consider this swap. It still rides like a truck, just not like the old suspension. I don't feel beat up after driving it a couple hours. And with the extra weight of the camper on it, it rides like a frickin' marshmallow.
So I've been chipping away at a few of the things I mentioned earlier in the thread, but haven't done much cause, well, it just works. And quite nicely at that.
Was it worth the expense/time/hassle? Hell yes. If you would have asked me that question when I was in the middle of the swap, I probably would have said no. Same answers I would have given during the diesel conversion, or adding the turbo, or the intercooler, or.......
bike-maker
Full Access Member
Ok now for some actual progress.
Nerf bars went away when the TTB went away, so I was looking for a new option.
Hauled home a pile of old pallet rack beams and 1/8" plate from the scrap yard:
And turned it into some new steps:
Bolted to the frame, plenty of beef.
Then I found some stainless door handles at a yard sale, and bent up some 1/8" plate to bolt them to the A pillar in front using riv-nuts.
Trimmed the plastic panel to go around them, turned out plenty sturdy:
I mounted another set of handles for the rear doors on the B pillar - on the backside of the lump that houses the front seat belt retraction framus (only on 83-86 crew cabs):
Nerf bars went away when the TTB went away, so I was looking for a new option.
Hauled home a pile of old pallet rack beams and 1/8" plate from the scrap yard:
You must be registered for see images attach
And turned it into some new steps:
You must be registered for see images attach
Bolted to the frame, plenty of beef.
Then I found some stainless door handles at a yard sale, and bent up some 1/8" plate to bolt them to the A pillar in front using riv-nuts.
You must be registered for see images attach
Trimmed the plastic panel to go around them, turned out plenty sturdy:
You must be registered for see images attach
I mounted another set of handles for the rear doors on the B pillar - on the backside of the lump that houses the front seat belt retraction framus (only on 83-86 crew cabs):
You must be registered for see images attach
Love.the handles
LCAM-01XA
Full Access Member
Goodness, 12k WITH a trailer? We're around there without one, just truck and camper! Rear axle is like 7k, front is about the same as yours... N/A too 
IMHO the 3.55s do alright in our setup as well, whatever they lack the wide-ratio ZF5 makes up for just fine.
Also yes, we have also noticed that softer suspension makes for better traction. Well ours is done quite differently from yours, but end result is the same.
Nice job on the grab handles, definitely gonna plagiarize your idea there!!!
IMHO the 3.55s do alright in our setup as well, whatever they lack the wide-ratio ZF5 makes up for just fine.Also yes, we have also noticed that softer suspension makes for better traction. Well ours is done quite differently from yours, but end result is the same.
Nice job on the grab handles, definitely gonna plagiarize your idea there!!!
Blind Driver2
Full Access Member
bike-maker
Full Access Member
Howdy everyone, I’ve been meaning to update this post for a while now (looks to be almost 3 years now). Haven’t been around much in the last few years, been busy with my own personal drama, but this isn’t the place for that so.......
I’ve made some more improvements to the ol’ truck, and figured I should document it. I’ve had numerous people tell me that they spent a considerable amount of time looking through this thread in preparation of their own swaps (I’ve even looked at it a few times to remember what the hell I did) so I’ll be adding to it over the next few days.
So stay tuned for some long winded posts, including, but not limited to, my typical amount of regurgitated details that someone, somewhere will hopefully find useful.
I’ve made some more improvements to the ol’ truck, and figured I should document it. I’ve had numerous people tell me that they spent a considerable amount of time looking through this thread in preparation of their own swaps (I’ve even looked at it a few times to remember what the hell I did) so I’ll be adding to it over the next few days.
So stay tuned for some long winded posts, including, but not limited to, my typical amount of regurgitated details that someone, somewhere will hopefully find useful.
bike-maker
Full Access Member
This is the latest change;
I keep thinking I’ve replaced every possible part on my truck that might have been original, but a few weeks ago it proved me wrong once again. The original brake master cylinder started leaking from the input side a while ago, and like any leak, it only got worse: to the point that the wife was complaining about washing brake fluid out of my socks...
Typical bike-maker repair; I can’t just replace parts, I see the situation as an opportunity for an upgrade.
That 35 year old, rusty cast iron relic with its piddly 1-1/8” bore was donated to the scrap pile. I ordered a new mc from a O5 superduty hoping it could be made to work. Not a chance. The mounting area of the newer hydro booster had to be changed to fit the humongo 1-1/2” bore of the newer mc. So a trip to the junkyard netted a hydro booster from a 05.
The hydro booster from the 05+ Superduty looks really similar to the older F-Superduty version, but the differences are:
Mounting for the master cylinder had to be changed to accommodate the bigger master cylinder bore size.
The input rod (that connects to the brake pedal) has the same size eyelet, but is way to long.
The mounting plate is bigger and has a different bolt pattern.
The ports for the pressure lines are metric instead of the older versions being SAE.
I keep thinking I’ve replaced every possible part on my truck that might have been original, but a few weeks ago it proved me wrong once again. The original brake master cylinder started leaking from the input side a while ago, and like any leak, it only got worse: to the point that the wife was complaining about washing brake fluid out of my socks...
Typical bike-maker repair; I can’t just replace parts, I see the situation as an opportunity for an upgrade.
That 35 year old, rusty cast iron relic with its piddly 1-1/8” bore was donated to the scrap pile. I ordered a new mc from a O5 superduty hoping it could be made to work. Not a chance. The mounting area of the newer hydro booster had to be changed to fit the humongo 1-1/2” bore of the newer mc. So a trip to the junkyard netted a hydro booster from a 05.
The hydro booster from the 05+ Superduty looks really similar to the older F-Superduty version, but the differences are:
Mounting for the master cylinder had to be changed to accommodate the bigger master cylinder bore size.
The input rod (that connects to the brake pedal) has the same size eyelet, but is way to long.
The mounting plate is bigger and has a different bolt pattern.
The ports for the pressure lines are metric instead of the older versions being SAE.
