Name the cause of this smokeshow - 6.9IDI+T

[The_Josh_Bear]

So how would I know if the timing mark / damper is clocked wrong? I’m guessing I would need to find TDC on #1 and check the position of the timing notch on the damper? I’m at a loss here .......

Unfortunately there is not a good way to find TDC without taking a good chunk of hardware off the engine since we can't stick something down the injector/GP hole to find the piston at TDC due to the pre-cup design. So pulling the timing cover is one way, or as most of us have done just time it, drive it, repeat. It's not glorious but it works.

It's good to finally see a picture of your IP, just start advancing it. Loosen both the injector and IP side of the lines a 1/2 turn and you're fine. That will give you lots of movement-- IMO 2 dimes width at this point is making more work for yourself. I personally would have no qualms bumping it 1/4" and going from there.
As an example, even if you found yourself advanced to 15* BTDC it would run and not damage anything short term. But don't drive around like that as I may erode GP's. But people have done it! Point is don't be worried to get after it.

Now I see it:
Check out your picture, the square block on the IP under the copper return line. Usually the mark on the IP is roughly inline with the center of that square which puts it centered to the upper hold down/adjustment bolt. In your case that mark is seriously retarded, all the way to the edge of the square. No wonder!
BTW that square block is the best way to adjust the IP, using a crescent wrench or end wrench if you have one big and snug enough.

And furthermore, we all have to advance our timing past the stock mark that's centered-ish on the square. So your timing is making more and more sense now.

 

[danno]

Ok....... well now what? I adjusted all the way to the end on the slot and the meter is reading around 1 BTDC idle and -3.5 (AFTER) TDC at 2000 rpm. Still a bouncy idle as you’d expect with slow timing. What’s the next step how do I get 12 more degrees when I’m at the end of the slots? I’m guessing next step would be adjustment in the gearing of the pump gear. Right? Anybody have a step by step Tutorial?

... She won’t let me push her any farther captain she just don’t have any more to give.... <~~ (Scotty)

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[Big Bart]

Ok....... well now what? I adjusted all the way to the end on the slot and the meter is reading around 1 BTDC idle and -3.5 (AFTER) TDC at 2000 rpm. Still a bouncy idle as you’d expect with slow timing. What’s the next step how do I get 12 more degrees when I’m at the end of the slots? I’m guessing next step would be adjustment in the gearing of the pump gear. Right? Anybody have a step by step Tutorial?

... She won’t let me push her any farther captain she just don’t have any more to give.... <~~ (Scotty)

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Danno,

Something is wrong. Some possibilities.

1) The gearing is off, there should be enough pump movement to time it if everything was correct. You were not real clear when asked earlier. Did you remove just the pump (Left top gear and gear cover on the motor.) or did you take the pump, gear, and gear cover off to replace it?

2) Potentially your damper is bad per Joshthebear, but the truck would have ran well somewhere along the line of moving the IP that much. Thus it would have run good, not smoked, but you would have had a false reading. It does not sound like this is your problem, just do not rule it out.

3) To confirm you are putting the damper probe in the hole to the right that is higher up on the timing tab correct? The hole at the left is TDC and not used for your meter.

4) So it looks like you need to take the gear cover, gear, and pump off and get everything re-aligned. If it is aligned then move it 1 or 2 teeth. Perhaps the PO or you put the pump on wrong (1 or more teeth off or 180* off.). The IP is keyed to the gear so it’s hard to mess that up. But when the pump and gear are put on together it can be aligned, 1 or 2 teeth off, or 180* off. The truck will run with the pump 180* off but not great. (This could be your issue.) There are some threads on how to do this. I have never tried, so sorry I cannot tell you how to best do it.

I would pull the passenger side valve cover so you can put the engine at TDC before you pull the IP. I would also put the IP back with the two timing marks on the IP lined up.

Sorry this is such a PITA for you.

 

[TNBrett]

If I have to guess , I’d say it’s off a tooth. It’s really hard to see the marks with the front cover on. A flashlight and an inspection mirror might help. Take a look at this and see if it helps you wrap your mind around it.

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[Big Bart]

One suggestion would be after you pull the valve cover to make sure you are at TDC of the compression stroke.(Both intake and exhaust valves closed during the up stroke to TDC, damper line in middle of the lower tube on damper timing tab.)

Then use a mechanics mirror or a probe camera to see if your “Y” marks are aligned. If they are aligned call the pump rebuilder and ask why do you have to move off of timed to adjust their pump? (Maybe it’s a pump problem.) Moose pumps have a great reputation, but everyone makes an occasional mistake.

If the Y marks are not aligned then you know the IP gear is not aligned and you know what to do. If the Y mark is at the top (12 o’clock.) you are 180* off. (Someone put the gear on likely with TDC mark on but during the change from exhaust to intake stroke. As TNBrett pointed out the IP turns once for every two of the crank. 1:2)

Keep in the back of your mind if Joshthebear perhaps is correct, your damper ring spun, things will not add up. Perhaps your valves will not be closed and the y marks not aligned when at the TDC timing mark. Again this is not likely, but possible, just rule it out vs assuming it’s true.

This is the challenge with 30 year old trucks with prior owners, you don’t know what has been done prior and if it was done correctly. Also never assume a new or rebuilt part works. Every couple of weeks a member discusses how a new or rebuilt part came not working. TNBrett got a “new” not working vacuum pump this week. So don’t assume your new pump is set up right, likely it is, but prove it don’t assume it.

 

[danno]

OK thanks guys. Now I'm curious if I was using the right timing sensor hole I didn't realize there were two of them. I actually owned this truck years ago and traded it to some farmer for an old tractor. He replaced the IP because he broke the VRV and couldn't find a replacement. I bought it back from him a couple years ago and it never ran well. Needed ether to start, the VRV was the wrong one and wouldn't shift, it was a mess. SO I went ahead and found a VRV, bought a moose Jr... new injectors, cobbled together a turbo, etc.. When I replaced the pump I didn't do anything with the top cover I just took pump out and lined up the new one with the dowel pin hole.

So I'm going to make sure I'm using the correct timing hole then I'll start tearing it down again. Is there a diagram showing both timing holes? one is at TDC and the other at 20 degrees?//////

 

[danno]

If this is the wrong hole I’m an IDIot and please don’t hold back on scorn....... i see now there’s another port above it that actually makes more sense based on where the spring is on the probe. So if those are 20 degrees apart then I’m 16.5 BTDC.

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[TNBrett]

That’s the wrong hole. The longer smaller one is the correct one.

 

[Big Bart]

Correct the other tube you should use is 20* ATDC. That is why you set the meter for a 20* offset.

So put the pump back so the alignment line on the pump side is 2 dime thicknesses towards the passenger fender from the other line. Lock the pump down and check the timing.

Hopefully that will do the trick.

 

[Sergey]

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So ... I've had this truck for many years as most of you know...

Here's what I've done in my quest for more reliability and power:

All new lines back to the tank
Electric lift pump (fuel pump, facet)
New Moose Jr IP
New Rockauto GBremanufacturing Injectors <-- my current most likely candidate for replacement with Moose injectors
I'm on at least my third return line kit, no visible fuel leaks in the system
Turbo pieced together from ebay used junkyard parts with giant conical filter
Full 4 inch exhaust
Custom intake
New Glow Plugs
New aluminum radiator
fully rewired ignition system
gear motor starter

I followed all the instructions on 6.9IDI+turbo setup, pierced holes in the oil drain, etc.

I have Auber Instruments boost pressure gauge and EGT, runs 7.6-8.0psi boost (wastegate limited I'm sure) and gets up around 1000F degrees max on WOT going up hill, empty. Typical EGTs around 400-500F

The problem is.. she smokes, a lot... a little black smoke on acceleration, but white/gray smoke all the time. the video is a cold start... it doesn't change much as she warms up. Power feels really good, cruises at 70mph easy even holds speed up hill from a truck that could barely do 55 empty uphill. Temps are good.

Cold starts hard, three or four cycles of 15-20 seconds with manual glow plug button pressed pretty much the whole time. Starts easy when hot.

I'm constantly worried about fuel leaks.. I put a clear line between the lift pump and the filter head and it'll gather a small bubble within an hour or so of shutting it down.

So what do you guys think?? Does it look like air in the fuel system, still? What's the most likely culprit for air between a Facet lift pump and the filter head? Olive seals? Maybe on the feed line between the filter head and the IP inlet? Would that cause enough intrusion for this much smoke? I'm not consuming coolant... the oil looks good. The best guess i have is the moose junior pump is not matched well with GB remanufacturing "new" fuel injectors. I don't know what the injector code is, it's not visible. The smoke issue is the same as it was before i added the turbo setup.. i thought maybe some boost would remedy it... didn't change anything.

I usually take it simple methodical when diesel engine produces smoke.

Here we go

• Black smoke
• Comes from incomplete combustion
• too much fuel for little air, choose one or more from faulty injector, air filter blockage, or not enough time to burn – incorrect timing
• incorrect, too heavy fuel
• White or grey smoke
• Comes from fuel vapor, no combustion
• cylinder(s) with low compression, sticky valve, etc.
• Comes from coolant or water enter cylinder or exhaust system
• Near transparent blue-ish
• Something burns into very fine solid particles, like metal additives

BTW your truck body looks like in awesome shape, fine paint.

 

[danno]

Phew maybe that means I don’t have to open it up further but I do feel like an idiot for assuming I had the timing set up right after all the trouble I went through......... too soon old to late smart.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

Phew maybe that means I don’t have to open it up further but I do feel like an idiot for assuming I had the timing set up right after all the trouble I went through......... too soon old to late smart.

But you learned something. That's the main thing.

 

[danno]

Well... after a few adjustments using the proper timing setup I'm happy to report that I was able to get consistent repeatable 8.5 BTDC on the timing meter. I think I'll leave well enough alone for now... she still smokes a bit... compression was good and the timing is correct so I'm back to suspecting the injectors but at least I know it's safe to drive and I can start towing...

thank you all for your help! If anyone is needing timing done in ATL area LMK. Cheers!

 

[Big Bart]

Glad to hear it’s all sorted out and timed!