Name the cause of this smokeshow - 6.9IDI+T

[TNBrett]

You’re not nuts. It’s completely possible for it to run that retarded. That’s how my 7.3 IDIT engine was when I first got it. The white/grey smoke was billowing. IIRC it was 13 degrees retarded a 2000rpm, so 21.5 degrees off. It came from a wrecked truck, so someone was driving it like that. It sounds like you were using and reading the meter correctly. Go ahead and set it where it needs to be.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

Finally, yes, it will run that far off. It will even run with the timing 180* off. It just won't run well.

 

[danno]

I am not familiar with your unit so take what I saw with a grain of salt, I could be wrong.

I believe the meter was telling you your engine was to ”retarded” at -15*, and it should have been at 8.5*. (That your timing is 23.5 * off, firing 23.5* late thus why you might have a white smoke show.). So you were trying to retard the timing but it looks as if you should have advanced it.

Some questions?

1) Are you using the damper probe or a timing light?

2) If the damper probe, did you use it in the tube to the top right on the damper timing bar?

3) If yes on #2 did you set the meter to have a 20* offset?

4) If you used a timing light, was is it specifically for that timing system? Or is it a generic one for a gas engine?

5) Any idea of how your timing got so far off? Did you do any IP or injector work?

I’m making the same analysis you are here that it was 15* retarded and I retarded it further so I have to go all the way passed zero to +8.5. I just wanted to see if I was crazy before I turn it up that far...

I changed the IP out a while back and never could find somebody with the timing equipment so I bought one. I used the fuel line clamp on #1 and the hole on the dampener to locate the mag pickup and set the offset to -20.

Thanks Bart

 

[danno]

Thanks for quick reply everyone, going back under the hood to get ‘er done. FWIW I decided to change the glow plug wire spades to bullet ends and install 93 style glow plugs “while
I’m in there” and found #1 plug tip. was broken off... So now I’m going to run a compression test to see if it did any damage. I’d heard that really bad timing can cause glow plugs to break and this is potential confirmation of that....

Quick question the compression gauge i have says to warm up the engine, obviously so that the piston seals and all are warm and at their working temp but that’s going to be hot work... any you guys do compression testing on a cold engine? It’s 80 degrees outside today so not really what THAT cold ...

 

[danno]

Finally, yes, it will run that far off. It will even run with the timing 180* off. It just won't run well.

Yeah I read this in your other posts ... it’s sort of mind blowing that it would even run injecting fuel in the exhaust stroke

 

[TNBrett]

Thanks for quick reply everyone, going back under the hood to get ‘er done. FWIW I decided to change the glow plug wire spades to bullet ends and install 93 style glow plugs “while
I’m in there” and found #1 plug tip. was broken off... So now I’m going to run a compression test to see if it did any damage. I’d heard that really bad timing can cause glow plugs to break and this is potential confirmation of that....

Quick question the compression gauge i have says to warm up the engine, obviously so that the piston seals and all are warm and at their working temp but that’s going to be hot work... any you guys do compression testing on a cold engine? It’s 80 degrees outside today so not really what THAT cold ...

In your case you’re just doing a comparative check from one cylinder to the next, so you’ll still be able to assess that with it cold. You may not get an accurate read on total compression, but you’ll definitely be able to see a dramatic loss in compression if something was damaged.

 

[The_Josh_Bear]

One thing to note is that the mark on the damper can be wrong. Sounds dumb but IH made them in two pieces, NOT KEYED, and with the timing mark on the half that can slip.
SO, you are surely still retarded though it's possible you're not off by as much as you thought.

I would think the engine wouldn't start or barely start that far retarded but I know for a fact that they run just fine at 4* ATDC as mine was there once for weeks back when it was N/A. So I guess it's not too surprising that yours is running. It'll also run stupid hot like that.

As @Big Bart said, your meter was telling you it was retarded and you retarded it more. Needs to go back towards the passenger side about a foot, lol.
Retarded timing = white smoke show

 

[IDIBRONCO]

found #1 plug tip. was broken off... So now I’m going to run a compression test to see if it did any damage. I’d heard that really bad timing can cause glow plugs to break and this is potential confirmation of that....

So ahead and do the compression check first. If that checks out fine, then you probably don't have to worry. If the compression's fine, that tip may have just burned off instead of broke off. A leaky injector will cause glow plug tips to burn off.

 

[danno]

Ok so if this a dumb question feel free to admonish me with implications of ignorance, but how am I to gain 31 degrees of advance? By my calc at .050” per 2degrees that’s .755” as seen by the mark I just made with a scribe, pointing to it in the photo below with a wood skewer. I surely cannot go that far just with loosening the nuts on the pump and rotating it so does that mean removing the timing cover and messing with whatever gears or chains are under there? Hope there’s a tutorial on this somewhere .......

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[danno]

One thing to note is that the mark on the damper can be wrong. Sounds dumb but IH made them in two pieces, NOT KEYED, and with the timing mark on the half that can slip.
SO, you are surely still retarded though it's possible you're not off by as much as you thought.

I would think the engine wouldn't start or barely start that far retarded but I know for a fact that they run just fine at 4* ATDC as mine was there once for weeks back when it was N/A. So I guess it's not too surprising that yours is running. It'll also run stupid hot like that.

As @Big Bart said, your meter was telling you it was retarded and you retarded it more. Needs to go back towards the passenger side about a foot, lol.
Retarded timing = white smoke show

So how would I know if the timing mark / damper is clocked wrong? I’m guessing I would need to find TDC on #1 and check the position of the timing notch on the damper? I’m at a loss here .......

 

[Big Bart]

Ok so if this a dumb question feel free to admonish me with implications of ignorance, but how am I to gain 31 degrees of advance? By my calc at .050” per 2degrees that’s .755” as seen by the mark I just made with a scribe, pointing to it in the photo below with a wood skewer. I surely cannot go that far just with loosening the nuts on the pump and rotating it so does that mean removing the timing cover and messing with whatever gears or chains are under there? Hope there’s a tutorial on this somewhere .......

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I think a better way to look at it is the pump head and damper are circles. A circle has 360*. Your damper is showing the timing is off 23*. So you need to move your pump head circle 23* towards the passenger fender to be timed. (Maybe less because we do not know how the IP advance is going to react to moving the IP.) So think of it as you are going to move the pump 23* or 6.3% of 360*. I would move it two dimes width towards the passenger fender and see where you are at. If your injector lines are resisting loosen them when moving the IP to avoid stressing them. Then tighten the IP and lines and retest. Then you will have a good idea of how much if any you need to go from there.

 

[TNBrett]

The IP turns at half the speed of the crank. You’d need to rotate the pump 1 degree to change the timing by 2 degrees.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

Each pump also reacts differently. Your estimate of .050" for 2* is a ball park figure. I would go with Bart's suggestion of advancing the timing and then seeing where it's at.
To help a little bit, IIRC, when #1 cylinder is at TDC, the dowel on the front of the pump is at about the 4 o'clock position. That will give you at least a rough idea of whether or not the balancer mark is close.

 

[Big Bart]

The IP turns at half the speed of the crank. You’d need to rotate the pump 1 degree to change the timing by 2 degrees.

TNBrett,

Good point. It’s a four stroke so you only pop the injector every other crank rotation. Thus why it would be 2:1 gear reduction. To your point also 2:1 on my two circle degree theory.

Danno,

I stand corrected, your IP in theory needs to turn 11.5* toward the passenger fender. I am not clear how the IP advance works and if it has a static advance curve based solely on rpm or is influenced by other factors.(So maybe I am still wrong.) I would still move the IP two dime thicknesses and take a reading. You should have a good idea how much it moved and how much if any from there.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

I would still move the IP two dime thicknesses and take a reading. You should have a good idea how much it moved and how much if any from there.

Trial and error is the only way to get the timing correct.