Has anyone implemented a Drive line brake on a NON-F-SUPERDUTY
- Thread starter jay22day
- Start date
LCAM-01XA
Full Access Member
2wd truck? The output housing if the typical GV unit does not have provisions for a driveline brake. About the only way I could see it happening with bolt-on parts would be to find one of the older units made for motorhomes with a driveline brake, and then swapping or modifying your transmission to 4x4 output shaft.
Or you could inquire with GV about their in-between "racing" units, those are meant to have a t-case hanging off their rear which by default means they should also accept the F-Superduty driveline brake.
Or you can install a remote-mount NP205 transfer case where your carrier bearing is right now, and have the output of that swapped for the NP200 driveline brake out of an old Dodge truck (good luck finding gone).
Or you could replace your rear axle with a 14-bolt GM 1-ton axle, these have a removable 3rd member and last I checked there were driveline brakes available that go on the pinion input flange.
Is either of these options cheap - heck no! The question is why do you feel the need to go with a driveline brake instead of the factory setup?
Or you could inquire with GV about their in-between "racing" units, those are meant to have a t-case hanging off their rear which by default means they should also accept the F-Superduty driveline brake.
Or you can install a remote-mount NP205 transfer case where your carrier bearing is right now, and have the output of that swapped for the NP200 driveline brake out of an old Dodge truck (good luck finding gone).
Or you could replace your rear axle with a 14-bolt GM 1-ton axle, these have a removable 3rd member and last I checked there were driveline brakes available that go on the pinion input flange.
Is either of these options cheap - heck no! The question is why do you feel the need to go with a driveline brake instead of the factory setup?
kuskoal
Full Access Member
http://www.tsmmfg.com/np205.html
my question is, why would you need one if you still have your stock drum setup on your rear? Those massive things should be able to hold some weight back!
my question is, why would you need one if you still have your stock drum setup on your rear? Those massive things should be able to hold some weight back!
The idea of a drive line brake is just attractive to me as, within the recent GV thread i started, it was pointed out that trucks w/ GV may not be a good application for an exhaust brake. I still plan to call GV and talk to them about this but, with that being said, and my recent acquisition of knowledge of the F-superduty drive line brake, i wanted to inquire about it.
I have an exhaust brake and want to keep it, so we will see what GV has to say about engine- braking/exhaust-braking.
The drive line brake wouldnt be replacing the drum assembly it would be in addition too.
Im hauling trucks of the same and greater weight with a towbar and wish to keep as much wear and tear off of the standard braking system as possible.
Yes a hydroboost is in my near future.
some times i just cant leave "good enough" alone, but..
a man never complained about having something and not needing it...
...when it comes to braking, if i have a problem...i might not be around after to complain about it haha (really though)
one cant be to safe
kuskoal
Full Access Member
GV does sell a "motorhome" kit that makes more sense than hanging the OD off your tcase/trans. it appears to go in between a 4wd trans output housing and your factory driveline brake/tcase... so that means OD in 4wd if used with a bw1356. Then you can hang the brake off a tcase OR use an f-superduty brake. Line locks?
it's under the motorhome tab on their website.
As for not recommended for engine braking, i have a theory but i could just be blowing smoke.
it's under the motorhome tab on their website.
As for not recommended for engine braking, i have a theory but i could just be blowing smoke.
Go ahead, roll coal man!!!! ahah lets hear it. There is a few good theory's and a few experiences reviewed in the GV thread. Whats your thought?
kuskoal
Full Access Member
So the way this is working in my mind is you are using your truck to perform work on the engine, not your engine performing work on the truck. Your axle has a 4.10 ratio, GV has a .78 and your E4OD has .71. When applied backwards, your engine sees a 7.45:1 ratio trying to spin it, vs your engine trying to spin a 2.55 ratio.
I did the math backwards because your engine is now requiring work and uses vehicle intertia to spin it. so if your engine was 200 hp, and your exhaust brake is 60% efficient, you get 120hp worth of braking.
Your Gear vendors has to put up with a 4.10 ratio trying to spin it backwards againt it's own overdrive, which is acting like and underdrive now, at 1.22:1. a 22% increase in torque, which nets you a 5.25:1 ratio at the e4od output shaft. Along with the GV now trying to spin the e4od's overdrive, it's going to be doing some slippin'!
I imagined everything working backwards. axle ratio to GV ratio to E4OD ratio to the 120HP engine braking.
Anyone feel free to set me straight! If i'm wrong i want to figure this stuff out!
I did the math backwards because your engine is now requiring work and uses vehicle intertia to spin it. so if your engine was 200 hp, and your exhaust brake is 60% efficient, you get 120hp worth of braking.
Your Gear vendors has to put up with a 4.10 ratio trying to spin it backwards againt it's own overdrive, which is acting like and underdrive now, at 1.22:1. a 22% increase in torque, which nets you a 5.25:1 ratio at the e4od output shaft. Along with the GV now trying to spin the e4od's overdrive, it's going to be doing some slippin'!
I imagined everything working backwards. axle ratio to GV ratio to E4OD ratio to the 120HP engine braking.
Anyone feel free to set me straight! If i'm wrong i want to figure this stuff out!
towcat
Full Access Member
you need to understand the engineering on how a GV works first. google up "laycock overdrive" to get educated.
LCAM-01XA
Full Access Member
Well that takes care of the whole D80 swap behind a hand-shaker issue, thanks a bunch!
Ah, didn't see that yesterday when i was browsing thru their products. So by the looks of it the C6 units are out, but the 4R100 ones (part # 3D4R101 and 3D4R102, whatever the difference may be) sure look like they'd work well. Wonder why they need to know axle ratio and tire size though, I thought all GV units are geared the same internally?
Like i said in the other thread, PacBrake > GV any day. Especially in your application. You really want to avoid using any friction-based brakes you may have till last possible moment, that's why one should never follow a heavy-haul 18-wheeler too close - good drivers will have their rigs slowed down from interstate speeds down to 15-20 mph on jakes alone before the brake lamps ever come on in the back. A driveline brake is a good backup for the service brakes, but I still wouldn't wanna get to using it like that, ever! See what GV folks have to say about use of exhaust brakes, but considering the other limitations of their unit you may wanna keep an eye out for a US Gear or even better a Mitchell one.
Btw you really should look into one of those systems RV folks use on their "toads", it applies the towed vehicle's service brakes very much like electric trailer brakes, not very useful when the "toad" is hydroboosted but if it has vacuum brakes the tow vehicle will supply vacuum for that and after calibrated properly it's a very nice setup.
79jasper
Chickenhawk
Really expensive, but you can get a electric driveline brake. Some firetrucks and stuff have them.
Uses electromagnetic forces.
Sent from my SM-T537R4 using Tapatalk
Uses electromagnetic forces.
Sent from my SM-T537R4 using Tapatalk
Can30Diesel
Full Access Member
Probably the cheap beer talking.. but..
driveline brake.. is that the same as gearing down and letting the driveline take on the load rather than regular brakes? I've heard of exhaust brakes which use engine exhaust compression to basically accomplish the same idea with a little more umph.
Unless the OP has an auto trans, I am kind of unsure about the plan of action here.
Anyhow, I am probably making little sense and I am sure its probably been covered above, and I missed it.
back to my regularly scheduled cheap beer.
driveline brake.. is that the same as gearing down and letting the driveline take on the load rather than regular brakes? I've heard of exhaust brakes which use engine exhaust compression to basically accomplish the same idea with a little more umph.
Unless the OP has an auto trans, I am kind of unsure about the plan of action here.
Anyhow, I am probably making little sense and I am sure its probably been covered above, and I missed it.
back to my regularly scheduled cheap beer.
IDIoit
MachinistFabricator
speaking of cheap beer.
costco sells a 40 pack of kirkland beer ( may as well be DUFF beer)for less than $25 bucks
if you can get past the first 3... who am i kidding it still taste like crap.
but its great for guests
costco sells a 40 pack of kirkland beer ( may as well be DUFF beer)for less than $25 bucks
if you can get past the first 3... who am i kidding it still taste like crap.
but its great for guests
kuskoal
Full Access Member
I gotcha towcat. It operates exactly how i thought it would. Still a 1.22% torque multiplication if it were to spin backwards. The cone clutch would be slipping a lot regardless because in on/off its either forcing to sun/planetaries to move as one or force the sun to stop and the planetaries to overdrive.
http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/how_it_works_laycock_overdrive.htm <-good read if you are stuck in an armory all night
The Warden
MiB Impersonator
I have to ask...I get the impression that you're looking for a service brake that mounts to the driveshaft, like what 79jasper mentioned:
When people hear about a driveshaft brake in the context of our trucks, most of them assume you're referring to the driveshaft parking brake that the F-450's used.
As I understand it, the F-450 parking brake is really not meant to be used as a service brake...it can be used in an emergency, but it's really designed primarily to hold a stopped truck in place, and IIRC using it with the driveshaft spinning can ruin the oil seals on the unit very quickly.. Even if it didn't, it's still a drum brake similar in the basic design to the rear brakes on these trucks.
I don't know if there's an electromagnetic driveshaft brake that will fit under our trucks, and I understand that they're VERY expensive...but, while I've never driven one, I've heard that they work very well
Like I said, I may be reading it incorrectly, but just in case, I figured something should be said before things go too far...
This is meant to augment engine braking, going back to the other discussion.
When people hear about a driveshaft brake in the context of our trucks, most of them assume you're referring to the driveshaft parking brake that the F-450's used.
As I understand it, the F-450 parking brake is really not meant to be used as a service brake...it can be used in an emergency, but it's really designed primarily to hold a stopped truck in place, and IIRC using it with the driveshaft spinning can ruin the oil seals on the unit very quickly.. Even if it didn't, it's still a drum brake similar in the basic design to the rear brakes on these trucks.
I don't know if there's an electromagnetic driveshaft brake that will fit under our trucks, and I understand that they're VERY expensive...but, while I've never driven one, I've heard that they work very well
Like I said, I may be reading it incorrectly, but just in case, I figured something should be said before things go too far...
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