Hard start then stalls when cold

[tonkadoctor]

Out of curiosity because of the way it stalls after it first fires I decided to check the HPOP oil reservoir just now and it's bone dry and of course the Haynes manual doesn't say squat about why it would go dry like this.

Anything other to look out for when I start troubleshooting besides an obvious oil leak I havn't found yet.

Found the info I was looking for.....Mostly pointing at LPOP, LPOP seal and/or worn Timing cover on a high milage engine like this. looks like a lotta oil all over this engine below what the stealership cleaned off to make it purty and plenty of, ummmmmm, lube on the bottom of the engine & front suspension.

BTW, I did notice the GP's were cycling for about 2 minutes this morning at about 29F so I think I can rule out EOT & Barometric pressure sensors

I'll check GP continuity and voltage tomorrow too.

Hey GEO you up fer another front cover ......"Lord I pologize fer dat" .....if mines chewed up by the LPOP or are ya gonna come over just to stupervise , point and

 

[Cowboy2199]

Do a v-drop not a continuity test.. Better results.

I'll check GP continuity and voltage tomorrow too.

The best way to check for high resistance in wires is a voltage drop test.. If you check between the battery and the plugs you shouldnt see any more than .5V dropped. Of course you have to do this while the GP's are on. No current flow, no v-drop.

The reason I say do a v-drop instead of continuity check is that even one strand of wire in the loom can carry 12V and give you no resistance to flow. Where as if you have resistance in the wire a v-drop will show the voltage looking for an easier path to that glow plug. Also, as you might know, the hotter a wire gets the higher the resistance in that wire. One strand of wire can carry as much as 2-3 amps of current before its considered overloaded.So if you have anything above .5V seeking an alternate path between the battery and the plugs, you have high resistance in the wiring somewhere.

It might be easier to put a false load on on the circuit like a reverse lamp or a headlight lamp. Then you can jumper the GP relay and have constant current flow while doing your check. Of course you will want to unplug all the GP's so they dont burn up on ya, but the bulb will give sufficient load to check your voltage drop.

If you arent exactly sure how to do a V-drop test, pm me and I can tell ya. Its similiar to a continuity test, you just dont unplug the circuit, and you check voltage instead of ohm's.

 

[tonkadoctor]

I'm testing more than just the wiring which is why I have to run both voltage drop AND continuity tests.

Quite honestly I don't think I'm going to find a problem with the GP circuit or any of the sensors, just doing it to rule out anything else and it doesn't cost anything but time, which I have a lot of being retired.

Everything I see and the symptoms I have experienced in the last few days I've had this truck point to the quick fill check valve, LPOP, LPOP seal, Front cover or a combination of these parts.

I'm pretty good a figuring out electrical & electronic problems. I just don't tell anybody but a close few friends because I don't like doing this kind of stuff.

 

[apextrans]

You're following my threads & vise versa . I have a HPOP leaking a little & have enough oil in the valley pan from it to leak down the back of the motor. I don't know how yours would be leaking without being seen. I was told the LPOP feeds the HPOP with oil, so maybe there's a LPOP problem? I'm completely unsure if this is even a possibility. Just making a suggestion based on what I was told about my HPOP.

63 there tommorrow? I should throw the PSD on a carhauler & come do my Sonnax kit & gauges at your place!!! 31 here for the high tommorrow. BBBBRRRRRR! Damn truck is too long & tall to fit in the garage.

Off topic: Fayetteville swap never came thru by the way, but I got my internet working in the truck so I can hit you up from the road if I'm rolling that way. My other truck will be in there this weekend but you don't want to hang with that guy. He's freakin weird, reminds me of the Uni-Bomber & doesn't like my PSD.

 

[tonkadoctor]

Hey Scott, You're always welcome here. Figured the run didn't work out, there's always another day. There is a little place called the "Altman's Grocery Barn" a couple miles from me on US 13 about 12 miles east of 95. They have truck parking and diesel but the diesel is usually 10 - 20 cents higher than what you'll find off of 95.

Kinda following in your footsteps, biggest diffeence is I knew I had it coming getting a truck this cheap from a Ford dealer. I'm pretty pleased how overly honest they were in overstating some of the problems and the way they treated and helped me when I was there and would buy from them again.

The oil from the HPOP resevoir can leak back through the check valve $10, worn LPOP $60 or worn front cover (worn by the LPOP) $400, the LPOP is steel and the cover is aluminum so with my luck lately the job will cost me $600 by the time you figure everything and then some, still cheaper than a new engine they said it needed.

Leave your extra hand at home, I'm libel to have a flashback and shoot em if he starts acting weird.

Got my Bronze Star tag for the truck today too, surprised it only took the DMV 2 days to get me the special plate & was even more surprised that they let me have it for a commercial weighted tag.

 

[tonkadoctor]

Ok got my game plan for tomorow after todays discovery

1. Top off battery charge from cranking it today
2. Fill HPOP and try to fire it up dead cold & see what happens, might save me the PITA of chasing down electrical & electronic problems, block heaters already unplugged.
3. If she fires up run to Ferd for check valve parts
4. R&R check valve
5. Test drive
6. let it cool off
7. pressure wash / degrease engine good
8. Top off HPOP
9. Say a prayer
10. check for external leaks
11. get shop ready to pull LPOP & front cover if necessary.
12. Cry if found bad

Cool, a 12 step program.......God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change , the power to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference

 

[Double-S-Diesel]

IMHO
your chasing the wrong pieces.
although it is possible that the LP pump is bad with the miles on it
symptom is starts runs 30 sec then will not refire until HPOP res is full.
that takes an extrene amount of cranking. LP will allow drain back also this symptom is usually presant after sitting a few days
2ndly
if the gps are not working chanses of firing cold is 0,
if it is firing then gp etc not to blame but could have weak ones.
3rd
fires up when plugged in, and is ok rules out #1
4th
if imjectors are weak/junk, hpop, gp, gp relay etc can be brand spanking new and working as supposed to, and the truck wont start cold, some times even when plugged in.

to save$$$$ and agravation, check the gps at the valve cover gasket, they are the fron 2 and back 2 pins on each connector.
get a new gp relay, I have a had a few look fine only to touch the bolts and it disentegrate. I recomend motocraft (5yrs of replacing them 0 problem,s)
then once it is runnin, get a good scanner hooked up to it.(good ,not a parts store scrap.)
by the info gathered from the icp, ipr, msfdes, and other paramters including perdels the problem will show.

Not tryin to be a know it all, just tryin to save ya a hassel.

plus Ive been there done that, and do it every day.
injector r/r class next sat.
todays class is rear fual tank r/r tranny mod. and gauge install

dont forget to pull front cover engine comes out
Nick

 

[tonkadoctor]

IMHO
your chasing the wrong pieces.
although it is possible that the LP pump is bad with the miles on it
symptom is starts runs 30 sec then will not refire until HPOP res is full.
that takes an extrene amount of cranking. LP will allow drain back also this symptom is usually presant after sitting a few days

Oh I appreciate the advice, any advice given gives me more to look at and new ideas. I'm an experienced mechanic but a novice with the PSD and IDI which is why I'm here so fire away.

If I hadn't experienced the way it's starting and the way it feels I'd be chasing the GP system too, but the truck fires and dies within 5 seconds then alot of cranking to get to even fire again and then it runs extreemly rough for a bit. It will do this in as little as 3 hours and went bone dry in 24 hrs. When cranking it isn't even trying to fire like it has no fuel....Once running the engine runs exceptionally well, very smooth, no miss, no smoke and has good power. IMHO untill I cure the cause of the HPOP resevoir losing oil I'll be just ******* in the wind chasing other stuff for now, like putting a bandaid on when you need stitches. I like to get one thing right first before moving to the next problem and losing oil like this in the resevoir is a major problem I want to fix first then I'll move on to the next item on the list.

I did get a good look this morning around the resevoir, HPOP, front cover and LPOP and everything is dry in this area, so the problem is definatly internal.

BTW, I wasn't impressed how it started when plugged in and it stalled within 5 seconds too. I'll find out within the next hour how well it cranks up with a dead cold engine as soon as I go get some more oil. Dang, thought I had a gallon of Rottella laying around here somewhere, Oh well be back with the results.

dont forget to pull front cover engine comes out
Nick

Oh yeah.......Looking forward to that

 

[tonkadoctor]

Update,

Topped of the HPOP, 2 qts, and gave it a try....Immediatly was trying to fire up cold (was just below freezing last night). Did keep dying for the first few trys but each time it ran a little longer and finaly kept running with a miss at first then it cleared up, figured there must have been plenty of air in the HP oil system, let it warm up a bit and took it out for about 10 miles and it ran great, sitting outside right now purring like a kitten.

Decided to goof off a bit while driving these country roads

0 - 60 in under 8 seconds and 0-90 in about 16 seconds with more to go The N/A IDI would've taken 2 minutes to hit 90 with those 3.08 gears

Just shut it down so I can monitor the rate in drop of the oil level in the HPOP resevoir over then next several hours, will post results when complete, gonna check the fuel filter and fuel filter housing for injector O-ring debris now.

 

[tonkadoctor]

Update on today’s testing, got a bit more done

• Checked GP circuit
  • Battery voltage 12.69
  • Voltage drop at batteries w/ GPs energized 12.00
  • Voltage at GP solenoid input terminal 12.69
  • Voltage at GP solenoid output terminal energized 11.60
  • GP cycle time measured at GP solenoid output terminal is 60 seconds with oil temp measured at HPOP reservoir 66F and ambient air temp of 60F both measured with a calibrated thermometer I'll check this again if the temps are around 30 or lower in the morning to see if the time energized gets to 120 seconds
  • Continuity from GP solenoid terminal to valve cover plugs measured 1.4 Ohms at all terminals
  • GP continuity from valve cover terminals to ground measured .001 ohm on cylinders 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8……cylinder 8 gives no reading indicating further testing needed on right UVC harness and # 7 GP

• Checked Fuel, filter and filter housing
  • Fuel drained from filter housing is clear and bright, no water or sediment
  • Filter is clean and appears to be new
  • There is red, black and tan sediment at bottom of filter housing, sediment is hard, not rubbery

• Oil level in HPOP reservoir is being monitored ever hour since shut down and is steadily declining
  • 6-1/16” @ 11:30 at shutdown
  • 5-7/8” @ 11:45 giving time for oil to settle after shutdown
  • 5-11/16” @ 12:30
  • 5-11/16” @ 13:30
  • 5-1/2” @ 14:30
  • 5-7/16” @ 15:30
  • 5-15/32” @ 16:30
  • 5-3/8" @ 17:30
  • 5-5/16" @ 19:30
  • 5-1/4" @ 21:30

At this rate I expect to se a drop of another 1-1/2” – 2” by 08:00, I'll continue to monitor throughout the evening till I go to bed and check it in the morning

Also called the Ferd Stealership to see what they would quote me on a new front cover if needed….I did this already knowing the wholesale and MSRP of about $350 and $480 respectively (I love the internet)……….Those sorry $%#^& told me $580….Nothing like gouging is there, I promptly ripped them and told them I knew the wholesale and MSRP and the told them what they were and they magically dropped the price to $380 without hesitation…..No wonder I buy cars & parts everywhere BUT there…I’ll call the local Navistar dealer Monday to check, I don’t mind them making a little profit but I can’t stand being *****. what a bunch of

 

[Russ]

IIRC if the O-rings on the injectors are bad, they will let the oil drain away causing the HPOP level to lower, So I think your need to inspect the injectors. JMHO

 

[tonkadoctor]

IIRC if the O-rings on the injectors are bad, they will let the oil drain away causing the HPOP level to lower, So I think your need to inspect the injectors. JMHO

Thanks, I was just discussing this with GEO. Could be the top set leaking oil into the valve cover area but definatly not leaking oil past the middle set, the fuel in the filter housing was clear & green, (clear and bright is the proper lab term), not contaminated with oil. I'd sure welcome any other suggestions as what causes the oil to go down in the HPOP resevoir too.

Time to get the valve covers off & inspect, gotta pull the right valve cover off to check the UVC harness & GP on # 7 cylinder anyways.

 

[apextrans]

As you know, I just went thru all of what you're getting ready to do. Not for the same reasons, but I was in there. Very easy & straight forward. Only little quirk I found is that with the injector in the cup, you can only get the GP about half way out with the socket all the way down on the GP. If you go further (and you can do that) you will not be able to remove the GP with the socket on it. Pull the socket up off the GP 'til you just barely have a grip & keep turning it out. I used a pair of needlenose pliars to remove it once it was free from the threads. don't know if you will have to remove them (or some of them) but just thought it might help.

Also, remove your oil filler neck from the pass side valve cover be fore you try to remove it. Makes that side much easier to get out.

Good luck.I'm watching this carefully due to my HPOP oil leak .

 

[tonkadoctor]

Thanks for the tip Scott.

Some good news.....I was surprised to find that the oil only dropped another 1/16" overnight to 5-3/16" so I see that O-rings and seals are holding better than thought.

Tried starting it this morning and same thing, fired, ran 5 seconds and died. Oil pressure gauge did not move when cranking. I suspect the HPOP resevoir went dry but dammit, I forgot to check it before attempting to crank a second time Soooooo we'll have to try that again tomorrow as the pressure came up and it did fill up the resevoir the second long crank. Followed by firing and stalling for about the next 30 or so attempts to start it (glad she has 2 new motocraft 850 CCA batteries in it)

Figure air getting in HP oil system is causing the start stall condition

 

[Double-S-Diesel]

OK I missed somewhere the loss of oil in the hpop.
but before I would chase the hpop etc try a lp not gonna hert with the miles.
they are inexpensive and relaively easy to change, just being behind the balancer.
clearance is supposed to be .005 aor around there. the one i did has .024 clearance, It is possible yours is worse.

if i recall corectly the check valve on these is in the hpop.
will check more in the book at the shop./

as far as scan tools most of the pc based is good, snap on bricks are good, even an otc 4000 will work up to 20

I think if you was loosin that much through an injector, you would know it.
2002 on the psd.
Nick