Driving a T19 - Is it Bad to Start in 2nd?

[cozinsky]

I drove a 84 F250 with a 460, T19 and 3.55 gears for years and almost always started out in 2nd gear and never had any problems. With a ZF I always use first, but the T19 was geared slower in 1st compared to the ZF so I never used it unless I was pulling a trailer.

 

[chris142]

I drove a 84 F250 with a 460, T19 and 3.55 gears for years and almost always started out in 2nd gear and never had any problems. With a ZF I always use first, but the T19 was geared slower in 1st compared to the ZF so I never used it unless I was pulling a trailer.

Don't the gassers use a trans with different ratios? Wide vs close ratio?

 

[ISPKI]

Don't the gassers use a trans with different ratios? Wide vs close ratio?

They do for the ZF5, not sure about the T19. 460 ZF5 1st gear is 5.72 I believe, whereas idi ZF5 is 4.14 ish.

I could hit maybe 7 mph in 1st gear in my F250 idi with a 460 zf5. Only used it to pull super heavy stuff around a short distance or out on a logging trail.

 

[PossumF250]

Do you know the state of the oil? If not, I say cange it and check level before draining, After it has been drained, take some thing like a coat hange and fish around to see if there is chunks of a syncro in the bottom.

I do not. I tried to change the gear oil once, but I couldn't get the drain plug to break loose, so I just keep it topped off. That is on my to-do list for the truck though. I'm sure with a bit more time and effort I could get that drain plug out.

 

[PossumF250]

OPs ‘84 could/probably is from my experience the wide ratio version with 5:1 1st. These were commonly standard in ‘83 & ‘84. He didn’t say what axle ratio he has. My ‘87 with 3.55 and 265/75-16s originally had close ratio T19 (4:1 1st) and starting in 2nd unloaded was possible but did require extra clutch slipping. After changing to wide ratio (5:1 1st) from a ‘84, starting is 2nd is routine but love the low 1st when starting with the RV. I don’t think there is an easy way to determine whether it is a wide ratio vs close ratio without actually counting number of input shaft rotations required for 1 output rotation with 1st gear selected but if you have 3.55 axle ratio and can’t get over about 20 mph in 1st with 265/75 tires when wound up to 3000, I bet he has a 5:1 1st version.

I hadn't heard of wide ratio transmissions being used with the diesel engines in 83/84 before, but it certainly feels like a wide ratio to me. As to axle ratio, it is 4.10:1, and the tires are 245/75-16. I can't get much past 20 mph in 2nd.

 

[PossumF250]

The term "Granny Gear" is just an arbitrary phrase, it doesnt hold any technical context, just implies that the gear ratio in question is very wide. By how much or what is really considered a granny gear is up to interpretation.

Whether or not you can start in 2nd really depends on alot of factors. Generally speaking, with a low 1st gear and a relatively low 2nd gear, unloaded, on relatively flat ground, as long as you dont have to slip the clutch alot to do it, its probably fine. The drivetrain is built to handle heavy loads, it should handle starting in 2nd with nothing in it easily.

I pretty much never start off in 1st in my 94 7.3 but that has a 4.11 rear end and a 460 wide ratio transmission.

My unofficial opinion is that if your 2nd gear is around 3:1 ish and you arent on a steep hill and/or carrying a heavy load, then starting in 2nd is fine and shouldnt wear anything out prematurely.

Thanks for clearing that up. That's about what I was thinking, but I was unsure. I'll probably just keep starting in 2nd unloaded and not on a steep hill because it does not feel like I'm causing any unnecessary or excessive stress at all by doing this.

 

[PossumF250]

If your transmission shift levers are like my 85 and 86
and 2nd and 4th are bent back to almost laying on
the seat. It makes it a bit hard to shift.
I used a Rose Bud and heated the shifter at the bend and straightened it up. Shifts real easy now. Don`t
know what Ford was thinking making it like that.

As far as to floating the gears, with a trans with synchro`s not a good idea. Can be done if you catch
the gear at the right RPM. Not good to make a habit of doing it. If you want to do it, install a 10 spd Road Ranger or 13 spd and float all day long.
Goat

I always thought that would be awkward with a bench seat, but I've got bucket seats with a center console and it clears just fine... as long as you don't actually have cups in the cupholders.

I'm with you on not floating gears. NEVER have done it and NEVER will. If it was meant to be floated, it wouldn't have synchros, and my understanding is that no matter how good you are, you'll wear out the synchros over time if you're always floating gears.

 

[PossumF250]

Are you positive somebody didn't swap in a t18 from a gas truck? A t18 will work behind a IDI using the t19 bell housing. I believe the t18 has a single pto port and the t19 has one on each side. I have a t19 from factory in my idi now its a zf5 but I always started in first and the only time it would ever grind is down shifting to 3rd I would just double clutch it and rev match then it was fine. My 87 F150 with a 300six has a T18 and that has the non syncro low gear but it is labeled as 1st on the shift knob but I never ever use low granny gear in my t18 unless I'm creeping off road its just terribly slow and shifting from 1st (low) to second is a huge gap and it will grind a little some times. In my idi t19 first to second was like any other gear no huge gap shifted smoothly so I'm wondering if yours has a t18 swapped in because to me that's what it sounds like your describing.

I'm not sure. The truck has 400,000-ish miles, the engine was replaced at some point, and it's had at least 3 previous owners, so anything's possible. I'll have to look into that, because now I am questioning whether that is in fact an original diesel T19 trans.

 

[PossumF250]

Don't the gassers use a trans with different ratios? Wide vs close ratio?

Yes. I can't speak from experience, but from what I've read, the gassers and diesels were equipped with T19s with different ratios--wide ratio for gas and close ratio for diesel.

 

[Isaac Ristow]

I'm not sure. The truck has 400,000-ish miles, the engine was replaced at some point, and it's had at least 3 previous owners, so anything's possible. I'll have to look into that, because now I am questioning whether that is in fact an original diesel T19 trans.

Well you'll know right away first is really a non synchronized low gear and it has a very far throw into it like 4 inches probably at the end of the shifter and a t19 has a synchronized 1st with a short throw about the same as the rest of the gears. I also believe a 18 has 1 pto cover and a t19 has 2

 

[PossumF250]

Well you'll know right away first is really a non synchronized low gear and it has a very far throw into it like 4 inches probably at the end of the shifter and a t19 has a synchronized 1st with a short throw about the same as the rest of the gears. I also believe a 18 has 1 pto cover and a t19 has 2

I originally thought 1st was unsynchronized because I can't get into 1st while going more than 1-2 miles an hour without double clutching, but the transmission has a PTO cover on either side. As I understand it, this means it must be a T19 (I found a few sources that back you up on the 1 vs. 2 PTO cover difference), and the 1st gear synchro has just gone out entirely.

 

[BrianX128]

I have a T18 in my straight 6 F150, first gear is nice for around the yard type things, but it's absolutely useless on the road even on hills. If you start out on a steep hill in first, if there is any "tension" on the gear as you are still accelerating or if you miss the "no load" point to shift out of first, you have to pull rather ******* the stick to get it out of first and the throw is incredibly long. I actually found a custom shift knob I have on mine that goes "X-tra Low, 1, 2, 3" instead of "1,2,3,4"

 

[Isaac Ristow]

I have a T18 in my straight 6 F150, first gear is nice for around the yard type things, but it's absolutely useless on the road even on hills. If you start out on a steep hill in first, if there is any "tension" on the gear as you are still accelerating or if you miss the "no load" point to shift out of first, you have to pull rather ******* the stick to get it out of first and the throw is incredibly long. I actually found a custom shift knob I have on mine that goes "X-tra Low, 1, 2, 3" instead of "1,2,3,4"

Exactly the low gear is pointless unless offroad with a straight six. Both my c30 chevys with the SM465 trans which is also a cast iron 3 speed with a low gear the factory shift knob goes L 1 2 3 ford was stupid for using a 1 2 3 4 shift knob on the t18's

 

[Isaac Ristow]

I originally thought 1st was unsynchronized because I can't get into 1st while going more than 1-2 miles an hour without double clutching, but the transmission has a PTO cover on either side. As I understand it, this means it must be a T19 (I found a few sources that back you up on the 1 vs. 2 PTO cover difference), and the 1st gear synchro has just gone out entirely.

Yah you'd be in need of a rebuild then which these are easy to rebuild if you have mechanical knowledge. But in the meantime if you want to shift to first while moving try not using the clutch just figure out by feel and sound and rpm where the throttle needs to be per mph for the shifter to drop right into 1st just like driving a semi. The t18 syncros in my inline six t18 are pretty tired often I just float the gears it will just drop right in for me because I've gotten such a feel for it. But that's the only stick trans besides my 69 F6000 ford dump ill float the gears in and I own 6 stick vehicles