cant help you much with the tranny but i would be intersted in the clutch for my swap, if you dont need the rest you could ebay it.
4 speed to ZF 5 speed swap
- Thread starter G. Mann
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cant help you much with the tranny but i would be intersted in the clutch for my swap, if you dont need the rest you could ebay it.
Cheaper Jeeper
Full Access Member
I haven't revisited this thread for a while, but I have mine all apart and plan on putting it all back together tomorrow. Here is what I have found through extensive searching, reading, looking at clutch catalog, buying and returning parts, talking to clutch guys, etc. etc. etc....
First, comparisons between the T-19 and the ZF: I was told that the T-19 and ZF-5 bellhousings were different - that the ZF was deeper. Then I set them side by side and started taking measurements and all the dimensions were essentially the same. So that left me sratching my head wondering how they made up for the difference in the thickness of the two flywheels.
I happened to have the DMF that came with the ZF-5 I bought, so I pulled the SMF off my truck set them side-by-side. Then I got 2 standard clutch sets - 1 for the 6.9/T-19 with the SMF and one for the 6.9/ZF-5 with the DMF and started comparing them. With the pressure plates on the flywheels the two assemblies were the same overall thickness.
BUT when I set the DMF pressure plate on the SMF, the overall thickness of the whole assembly was 1/2" less. Comparing the two pressure plates it was immediately obvious that the SMF unit was thicker (deeper?) than the DMF unit to make up for the difference in the thickness of the two flywheels. The DMF pressure plate would bolt right up to the T-19 SMF - they both have the same 2-bolt on 3 pattern. The problem is that if you bolt the DMF pressure plate to the SMF your TOB has to move 1/2" farther forward before it even contacts the release fingers of the pressure plate. That means the geometry of the TOB fork all out of whack and you have to modify it to make it work right.
Second - they offered both 11" and 12" clutches for both flywheels, and the input shafts of the two trannys are different. The T-19 shaft is actually 1-1/16" diameter and the ZF is 1-1/4". The biggest problem with doing the conversion is that both sizes of DMF clutch disks came with a solid center hub. That works if you're using it with a DMF which has its own springs to absorb the shock loads. It won't work so well with a SMF - that's why their clutch disks have springs in the center hub - and pairing the SMF with a solid center clutch disk means there are no springs anywhere to absorb any of the shock load.
Third - the crossmembers (at least for the 4x4 uperCab) are compatible. The T-19 and the ZF tranny mount are the same, and they are very close to being in the same location. The ZF mount is approximately 1" farther from the front edge of its bellhousing than the mount on the T-19. HOWEVER, the frame holes for the crossmember allow for about 1/2" of movement forwards or backwards. Even more important, the holes in the crossmember itself where the tranny mount sits are actually slotted and allow for at least an inch to an inch and a half forward-backward adjustment. The T-19 mount bolts sat at the front of the slots, and I'm pretty confident that when I go to put it back in tomorrow that the ZF mount bolts will sit near the back of the slots.
So the big problem I faced was to find somewhere I could buy one of the deeper style pressure plates for an SMF, AND a clutch disk with springs in the hub that will fit the 1-1/4" input shaft of the ZF.
I have only been able to find ONE manufacturer of "regular" (i.e. inexpensive) ZF/DMF clutch disks who puts springs in the center hub - just like the T-19/SMF clutch disk. That manufacturer is Fenco. I have also only been able to find one place that sells these two components separately instead of as part of a kit. Autozone sells the pressure plate under the ValueCraft brand part # CA31055. They sell the clutch disk under the ValueCraft brand as part # CP31103A
The only drawback is that these are the "standard" 11-inch clutch components rather than the "HD" 12-inch setup. HOWEVER, the clutch, pressure plate, TOB, and pilot bushing all added together cost me only $184 with shipping. Compared to the 12" LUK flywheel & clutch set for close to $600.
The best thing is that these are all standard components that can be replaced or rebuilt the next time its needed - instead of being a custom LUK replacement disk & pressure plate - which cost about $350 even without a new flywheel.
First, comparisons between the T-19 and the ZF: I was told that the T-19 and ZF-5 bellhousings were different - that the ZF was deeper. Then I set them side by side and started taking measurements and all the dimensions were essentially the same. So that left me sratching my head wondering how they made up for the difference in the thickness of the two flywheels.
I happened to have the DMF that came with the ZF-5 I bought, so I pulled the SMF off my truck set them side-by-side. Then I got 2 standard clutch sets - 1 for the 6.9/T-19 with the SMF and one for the 6.9/ZF-5 with the DMF and started comparing them. With the pressure plates on the flywheels the two assemblies were the same overall thickness.
BUT when I set the DMF pressure plate on the SMF, the overall thickness of the whole assembly was 1/2" less. Comparing the two pressure plates it was immediately obvious that the SMF unit was thicker (deeper?) than the DMF unit to make up for the difference in the thickness of the two flywheels. The DMF pressure plate would bolt right up to the T-19 SMF - they both have the same 2-bolt on 3 pattern. The problem is that if you bolt the DMF pressure plate to the SMF your TOB has to move 1/2" farther forward before it even contacts the release fingers of the pressure plate. That means the geometry of the TOB fork all out of whack and you have to modify it to make it work right.
Second - they offered both 11" and 12" clutches for both flywheels, and the input shafts of the two trannys are different. The T-19 shaft is actually 1-1/16" diameter and the ZF is 1-1/4". The biggest problem with doing the conversion is that both sizes of DMF clutch disks came with a solid center hub. That works if you're using it with a DMF which has its own springs to absorb the shock loads. It won't work so well with a SMF - that's why their clutch disks have springs in the center hub - and pairing the SMF with a solid center clutch disk means there are no springs anywhere to absorb any of the shock load.
Third - the crossmembers (at least for the 4x4 uperCab) are compatible. The T-19 and the ZF tranny mount are the same, and they are very close to being in the same location. The ZF mount is approximately 1" farther from the front edge of its bellhousing than the mount on the T-19. HOWEVER, the frame holes for the crossmember allow for about 1/2" of movement forwards or backwards. Even more important, the holes in the crossmember itself where the tranny mount sits are actually slotted and allow for at least an inch to an inch and a half forward-backward adjustment. The T-19 mount bolts sat at the front of the slots, and I'm pretty confident that when I go to put it back in tomorrow that the ZF mount bolts will sit near the back of the slots.
So the big problem I faced was to find somewhere I could buy one of the deeper style pressure plates for an SMF, AND a clutch disk with springs in the hub that will fit the 1-1/4" input shaft of the ZF.
I have only been able to find ONE manufacturer of "regular" (i.e. inexpensive) ZF/DMF clutch disks who puts springs in the center hub - just like the T-19/SMF clutch disk. That manufacturer is Fenco. I have also only been able to find one place that sells these two components separately instead of as part of a kit. Autozone sells the pressure plate under the ValueCraft brand part # CA31055. They sell the clutch disk under the ValueCraft brand as part # CP31103A
The only drawback is that these are the "standard" 11-inch clutch components rather than the "HD" 12-inch setup. HOWEVER, the clutch, pressure plate, TOB, and pilot bushing all added together cost me only $184 with shipping. Compared to the 12" LUK flywheel & clutch set for close to $600.
The best thing is that these are all standard components that can be replaced or rebuilt the next time its needed - instead of being a custom LUK replacement disk & pressure plate - which cost about $350 even without a new flywheel.
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Did you happen to take an overall length difference measurment. Like from the bell housing to the output shaft seal?
Cheaper Jeeper
Full Access Member
Yup. Had 'em both standing on their bellhousings side by side. Measured them from the ground (front of bellhousing) to the flange where the t-case bolts up. They were within 1/2" of being exactly the same length.
Can't say for sure that that is true for the 2WD version though. I kinda suspect that it would be, but I have no way to verify it since I don't have a 2WD T-19 available to measure.......
With regard to the ZF compatible clutch disc with springs - Lady Moose has one. I believe it was a Fomoco part, but I also think I saw the OEM "Velaro" or something like that on it. I searched the Thomas Register for that name, and didn't come up with anything. Your research and write up earns this thread a place in the Tech Articles hall of fame. 
At some point later, hopefully I can clean up the info gathered here into a more readable article.
At some point later, hopefully I can clean up the info gathered here into a more readable article.
Cheaper Jeeper
Full Access Member
With regard to the ZF compatible clutch disc with springs - Lady Moose has one. I believe it was a Fomoco part, but I also think I saw the OEM "Velaro" or something like that on it. I searched the Thomas Register for that name, and didn't come up with anything. Your research and write up earns this thread a place in the Tech Articles hall of fame.
At some point later, hopefully I can clean up the info gathered here into a more readable article.
Thanks man. As for the article, I was already seriously considering doing one. Most of the text is already written, just needs a few pictures and a little organization. Figured I've got it this far, might as well finish the job
Valeo, brazilian manufacturer that does a good job, my conversion was Valeo on the outside of the box and all Luk inside the box, gotta love market sharing.
T-19 to ZF swap confusion
This thread looks to be the pertinent place to post this, If not moderator please post appropriately.
Hello, all, Hal here, a newbie to your site and forum but not to Ford trucks/Intl IDI's I've got 10 in various states of disrepair. Rarely are more then 3 running at any given time. Well 9 as 1 is a gas burner.
Looking over this and other threads I get the impression some may have swapped in a ZF flywheel when doing a T-19 to ZF swap.
I have a 1985 W/6.9 and T 19 which I am preparing to swap in a ZF Tranny. I am confused about what flywheel to use. I was planning to swap in the flywheel that came with the ZF which is a DMF I intended to convert to SMF, however it is out of a 7.3 and according to the article below could result in balance problems.
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7639
I see from another article that I can utilize the 6.9 flywheel and which are the correct clutch, pressure plate and tob to use
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16973&page=2
I guess my question to this group.....For future reference, has anyone verified or have specific knowledge that there is a weight and balance difference between the 6.9 and 7.3 flywheels and has anyone swapped in a 7.3 flywheel in a 6.9 and what was the result? I have never personally seen an OEM SMF attached to a 7.3. Does this exist? I know it exists after market.
Thanks in advance for your responses
This thread looks to be the pertinent place to post this, If not moderator please post appropriately.
Hello, all, Hal here, a newbie to your site and forum but not to Ford trucks/Intl IDI's I've got 10 in various states of disrepair. Rarely are more then 3 running at any given time. Well 9 as 1 is a gas burner.
Looking over this and other threads I get the impression some may have swapped in a ZF flywheel when doing a T-19 to ZF swap.
I have a 1985 W/6.9 and T 19 which I am preparing to swap in a ZF Tranny. I am confused about what flywheel to use. I was planning to swap in the flywheel that came with the ZF which is a DMF I intended to convert to SMF, however it is out of a 7.3 and according to the article below could result in balance problems.
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7639
I see from another article that I can utilize the 6.9 flywheel and which are the correct clutch, pressure plate and tob to use
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16973&page=2
I guess my question to this group.....For future reference, has anyone verified or have specific knowledge that there is a weight and balance difference between the 6.9 and 7.3 flywheels and has anyone swapped in a 7.3 flywheel in a 6.9 and what was the result? I have never personally seen an OEM SMF attached to a 7.3. Does this exist? I know it exists after market.
Thanks in advance for your responses
Cheaper Jeeper
Full Access Member
You sure can, and if you read the 8th paragraph in post 18 (above) you'll see that I listed all 3 of the Autozone part #s for the disk, PP, & TOB, I used when I did my swap last summer...
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U joint
I'm 99% done with the T-19 to Zf swap but cannot find the correct ujoint. Any body got a part number as Ford and the parts houses got no clue around here and they are all tired of me going thru their inventory!
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I'm 99% done with the T-19 to Zf swap but cannot find the correct ujoint. Any body got a part number as Ford and the parts houses got no clue around here and they are all tired of me going thru their inventory!
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheaper Jeeper
Full Access Member
I don't have the part number, but what I did was took my old one in and told them I needed one for an 87 with the 6.9 and the ZF-5 speed for the front and an 86 with tht T-19 for the back...
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Cheaper Jeeper
Full Access Member
Well I went looking and unfortunately I didn't keep the boxes so I still don't have a part number for you Kohan - sorry. Like I said before try asking for a standard one for an 86 (or whatever year your truck is) for the rear and for an 87 with the ZF-5 for the front - and then compare what they give you to the ones you took out.
For anyone interested I finally got around to uploading the pictures comparing the depth of the bellhousings, lengths of the trannies, thickness comparison of the flywheels, thickness comparison of the pressure plates, placement of the tranny mounts, etc. into a photo gallery. I don't know how I can add them directly to the thread to make it a TRUE article, but here's a link to the picutures. Maybe the mods can tell me how to consolidate this all into one coherent article - or do it themselves if they are so inclined.
Here's the link to my gallery http://www.oilburners.net/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=157
Hope it is helpful and useful to others.
For anyone interested I finally got around to uploading the pictures comparing the depth of the bellhousings, lengths of the trannies, thickness comparison of the flywheels, thickness comparison of the pressure plates, placement of the tranny mounts, etc. into a photo gallery. I don't know how I can add them directly to the thread to make it a TRUE article, but here's a link to the picutures. Maybe the mods can tell me how to consolidate this all into one coherent article - or do it themselves if they are so inclined.
Here's the link to my gallery http://www.oilburners.net/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=157
Hope it is helpful and useful to others.
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