Getting the truck timed tomorrow...

[Diesel JD]

Yeah..usually poor performance is associated with the timing too far retarded but there's a point where you can have the performance suck with advanced timing too. I found that out when I had my truck apart for head gaskets and made it jump timing on the gear. I'm really glad you're happier with your truck now. Mel likes to say proper timing often makes the difference between a truck that someone likes and wants to keep and one they are frustrated with and never really happy with.

 

[Agnem]

Dang! That was really far advanced. Heck on most trucks you'd be hard pressed to get it to go that far. Was it all the way pushed over, or was there more left? Where are your static marks in relation to one another now? Out of the hundred plus trucks I've timed, only a handfull have ever been advanced when I got to them.

 

[Rot Box]

Dang! That was really far advanced. Heck on most trucks you'd be hard pressed to get it to go that far. Was it all the way pushed over, or was there more left? Where are your static marks in relation to one another now? Out of the hundred plus trucks I've timed, only a handfull have ever been advanced when I got to them.

After reading Sycostang67's post I'm all sorts of paranoid It runs good--a bit more black smoke on bottom that clears out on top--am I still too far advanced maybe? My mechanic said ~13.5* was where it was at now I'm wondering if he meant luminosity? I called and the bean counter behind the counter said he used pulse and set it to 9.7 for sure... Should I investigate further?

Are these factory "static" marks? If so the pump tilts to the driver side a wee bit if you can't tell. What do you guys think?

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[RLDSL]

Those marks only mean anything for the original pump, and even then if the tower hasn't been disturbed. That mark is showing very retarded, but if the pump has been changed, doesn't mean a thing.

Where you are is a base altitude of around 4500 ft. I wouldn't be turning the fuel up a flat, if anything I'd be turning it down. El cheapo stanadyne made no altitude compensation on their pumps so you either have to adjust it yourself or buy a high altitude pump EPA considers 4000 ft high altitude for those wondering if they need the HA pump or not( which is basically a cut back pump in a nutshell) so if the PO put a regular pump on, it's getting too much fuel.
Bosch pumps have automatic altitude compensation when you get above 3300 ft they incrementally advance the injection timing by .8 deg per 3300 ft ( another .8 deg at6600ft, another .8 at 9900 ft, you get the picture ) and reduce the injected quantity of fuel by roughly 2.3 cubic mm at those same intervals. Less fuel, more advance needed at altitude if you want to get over the hills, that's just how it is.

Putting more air to it would help, A hypermax cowl induction does wonders for getting fresh air into the thing
And while browsing around over there, they have another toy that would help your situation, their smoke puff limitor
Barring altitude compensation, this little goodie would allow you to have your pump turned up and with a little fine tuning , it would act much like an altitude compensator. Their smoke puff eliminator was designed after the Bosch anaeroids used on their turbo pumps that prevents more fuel from being injected than there is air for at the moment, it waits until there is sufficient boost to match then fuel is added at an appropriate rate to match the air, , the result is , a clean burn and more power. If I can ever get cash ahead, I'm putting one of these things on mine. I'ts always annoyed me that stanadyne didn't put one of these on in the first place ( the guy at Hypermax came to the same conclusion, I had a nice long conversation with the fella who designed it over the phone, I't s nice that the folks at Hypermax are still actively interested in developing products for our old beasts

 

[Agnem]

Wow. That's unprecidented. I've never seen a pumpt that advanced, running on the retarded side. It's almost as if your gear is off a tooth. Judging by the way you say it runs, I'd think they timed it right, but there is still a mystery here.

 

[Rot Box]

Those marks only mean anything for the original pump, and even then if the tower hasn't been disturbed. That mark is showing very retarded, but if the pump has been changed, doesn't mean a thing.

Where you are is a base altitude of around 4500 ft. I wouldn't be turning the fuel up a flat, if anything I'd be turning it down. El cheapo stanadyne made no altitude compensation on their pumps so you either have to adjust it yourself or buy a high altitude pump EPA considers 4000 ft high altitude for those wondering if they need the HA pump or not( which is basically a cut back pump in a nutshell) so if the PO put a regular pump on, it's getting too much fuel.
Bosch pumps have automatic altitude compensation when you get above 3300 ft they incrementally advance the injection timing by .8 deg per 3300 ft ( another .8 deg at6600ft, another .8 at 9900 ft, you get the picture ) and reduce the injected quantity of fuel by roughly 2.3 cubic mm at those same intervals. Less fuel, more advance needed at altitude if you want to get over the hills, that's just how it is.

Putting more air to it would help, A hypermax cowl induction does wonders for getting fresh air into the thing
And while browsing around over there, they have another toy that would help your situation, their smoke puff limitor
Barring altitude compensation, this little goodie would allow you to have your pump turned up and with a little fine tuning , it would act much like an altitude compensator. Their smoke puff eliminator was designed after the Bosch anaeroids used on their turbo pumps that prevents more fuel from being injected than there is air for at the moment, it waits until there is sufficient boost to match then fuel is added at an appropriate rate to match the air, , the result is , a clean burn and more power. If I can ever get cash ahead, I'm putting one of these things on mine. I'ts always annoyed me that stanadyne didn't put one of these on in the first place ( the guy at Hypermax came to the same conclusion, I had a nice long conversation with the fella who designed it over the phone, I't s nice that the folks at Hypermax are still actively interested in developing products for our old beasts

Great thanks for the awesome response! I was afraid that the mark didn't mean anything and it is a "new" pump but I don't know if it's rebuilt, or just a replacement parts store deal. That said I wonder how many of these trucks are out there with crappy timing? I'm sure most shops align the marks and call it good? Mine was so far out of whack that I'm surprised it really didn't have major engine problems especially when I was working it ******* my last trip to Moab and back

It does smoke a bit until I start to work into the turbo. I'm still a (obviously) newbie when it comes to these pumps, but I agree 100% with what you are saying. I have looked at those puff eliminators for awhile now--I really want to get my hands on one and also a wastegated turbo. I think that would help pick up boost and loose smoke quicker where as the non wastegated has that huge window of no boost and smoke.

Around here you can gain serious altitude very quickly in a canyon. It bugs me how my pump refuses to work with the turbo (not sure now that it is timed). If I get the right fuel on top end there is too much on bottom or great fuel on bottom but not nearly enough on top. The Bosch VE rotary pump on my first gen Cummins was great! You could feel the dymamic timing when pulling a hill too and it just worked so well with the turbo I loved that motor. I guess that's apples and oranges though. I'm sure it will just take some tinkering to find the perfect match on this ol' girl. Thanks again!

Wow. That's unprecidented. I've never seen a pumpt that advanced, running on the retarded side. It's almost as if your gear is off a tooth. Judging by the way you say it runs, I'd think they timed it right, but there is still a mystery here.

Thanks for the reply I don't know what to think... One tooth would make sense though I guess that won't hurt anything. I think I could figure this out real quick if I just had my own meter!

Thanks again you guys

 

[Rot Box]

I guess that makes sense as to how the pump was able to be so far advanced in the first place.

If the previous mechanic put the mark on the new pump exactly where the old pump was sitting, but was off a tooth... It would go from somewhat timed right to really advanced--Right? I think that makes sense...

I think its safe to say that my timing is right just off one tooth. Hopefully there are no negatives to this.

 

[Agnem]

If this is true, then it is likely that someone had the IP gear cover off at one point, and just didn't get the gears lined up perfect. But as you noted, there is no detrimental effect if the pump can achieve the correct timing by moving it regardless of the position of the marks. With the gear off a tooth, "static timing" that is when the marks are aligned, would result in a severe advance condition (or severly retarded if it were 1 tooth in the other direction).

 

[Sycostang67]

Now that my timing is set properly, my timing marks are perfectly lined up.

 

[RLDSL]

Great thanks for the awesome response! I was afraid that the mark didn't mean anything and it is a "new" pump but I don't know if it's rebuilt, or just a replacement parts store deal. That said I wonder how many of these trucks are out there with crappy timing? I'm sure most shops align the marks and call it good? Mine was so far out of whack that I'm surprised it really didn't have major engine problems especially when I was working it ******* my last trip to Moab and back

It does smoke a bit until I start to work into the turbo. I'm still a (obviously) newbie when it comes to these pumps, but I agree 100% with what you are saying. I have looked at those puff eliminators for awhile now--I really want to get my hands on one and also a wastegated turbo. I think that would help pick up boost and loose smoke quicker where as the non wastegated has that huge window of no boost and smoke.

Around here you can gain serious altitude very quickly in a canyon. It bugs me how my pump refuses to work with the turbo (not sure now that it is timed). If I get the right fuel on top end there is too much on bottom or great fuel on bottom but not nearly enough on top. The Bosch VE rotary pump on my first gen Cummins was great! You could feel the dymamic timing when pulling a hill too and it just worked so well with the turbo I loved that motor. I guess that's apples and oranges though. I'm sure it will just take some tinkering to find the perfect match on this ol' girl. Thanks again!

I'd be willing to make a guess that during the last pump swap the tower got pulled, gear got disturbed and moved a tooth, and the new pump got *timed* by lining up on the old mark and that was that.

I wouldn't be in such a hurry to ditch the non wastegated turbo. In those mountains, if you ever pull any kind of weight, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot. The turbo you have will give you all the boost you could ever want, you just need to get the rest of the combination worked out. That Hypermax cowl induction is a great place to start, it really makes that turbo sing, I have people riding with me constantly asking if that's my turbo just leisurly cruising around town. It really gets the air going into that puppy, plus it drops your EGTs a bunch . When I first put it on, I made a run to the feed store and promptly popped the hood to check my probe wires to see if I'd knocked them loose it was reading so low.

Then combining one of those smoke puff eliminators would really top off the combination. Interesting to note that Bosch calls those things a fuel enrichment device as when properly tuned they are supposed to make it burn clean until the turbo starts to spool, then as it begins to sense pressure it pours on the coals . I spoke at length with the designer and it is fully adjustable just like the bosch units so you can fine tune it in to pour on the coals exactly when you want it to, combine that with the fuel screw setting and You can have your cake and eat it too

 

[Rot Box]

Thanks again you guy's

Okay for starters last night when I finally got to drive my truck after the timing was set it was snowing and it was very cold. Now that I have my radiator covered back up (thought the cold was over ) and I could get the engine up to decent temperature in the daylight I have a totally different outlook and take back a lot of what I have stated up till this point.

This thing runs awesome! The pump thing is still a mystery, but it seems to be working great! There is a slight puff of black the instant I hammer down, but it quickly goes away. I now build boost quickly and depending on the hill I can hit 10psi all the while having almost zero noticeable smoke coming out the tail pipe that said this turbo is staying as I now see no need to switch to waste gated. This is really all I can ask for at this point, but with the puff eliminator and a slight adjustment of the fuel screw I could probably milk a bit more power out we'll see. Taking my air filter out does make a difference but not as much as it did before timing. I still plan to make a custom intake with a big paper filter when I can find some time.

Anyway I'm hauling the slide in Alaskan Camper and a trailer with a half dozen dirt bikes next weekend so we'll see how she does in the canyon

 

[Sycostang67]

Glad to hear you like it, I like mine better now too. I will also be cranking the fuel screw another flat or two since I no longer have any smoke except for the puff at take off.

 

[SLC97SR5]

Thanks for the update!
What do they charge, or any shop for that matter?

 

[Rot Box]

I'm too embarrassed to say what I paid Okay, it was $170 out the door but this is the only guy within a 100 miles I would trust my truck with and I didn't have time to wait because I have a long road trip ahead of me soon... That's how I justified it anyway

That said next time I'm buying a meter and plan to give it a shot myself.