Where's the boost?

DrCharles

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Posts
1,093
Reaction score
732
Location
West Plains, MO
I can play with timing, and probably make some more incremental improvements. But I keep coming back to:

If you’re not making boost just reving the engine you either have a boost leak or a worn out turbo. With a good sealed kit and decent turbo, you should start seeing boost around 2000-2300 rpms in neutral just slowly bringing the rpms up

And I'm not seeing any boost unless the engine is under load. So more and more I think my worn turbo is at fault. One company says they'll inspect it for a non-refundable $65, but if I go ahead with their rebuild that fee will be credited to the total.

Could changing the timing by 2 degrees, really make that much difference? :confused:
 

austin92

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Posts
982
Reaction score
295
Location
Brazil. IN
I can play with timing, and probably make some more incremental improvements. But I keep coming back to:



And I'm not seeing any boost unless the engine is under load. So more and more I think my worn turbo is at fault. One company says they'll inspect it for a non-refundable $65, but if I go ahead with their rebuild that fee will be credited to the total.

Could changing the timing by 2 degrees, really make that much difference? :confused:
Before I had timing equipment I advanced my old pump a dimes width and could noticeably feel a difference in higher rpms. Not sure how timing affects boost though. What’s your rebuilder charging total? Wes has a good price on turbo rebuilds and Russ did a good job on the one I’m waiting to put in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

DrCharles

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Posts
1,093
Reaction score
732
Location
West Plains, MO
It'd be about the same by the time shipping costs are factored in. First I'll try a small amount of advance and see, but I'm probably going to end up rebuilding it.

So I have to decide whether I want to spend $230 for an offshore cartridge and do it myself, or $450 to have Wes do it guaranteed right the first time :sly... I already have around $1000 in this turbo setup. Still beats $2500-3000 for a new one though!
 

Thewespaul

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Posts
8,796
Reaction score
8,058
Location
Bulverde, Texas
Retarding the timing puts more energy out the exhaust and less pushing down on the piston, Its more "waste" but it will push the turbine wheel harder with more drive pressure and make more boost, however its less % of the energy from combustion translating into the crankshaft spinning and turning the wheels. More advance shifts that percentage to more of the explosion pushing down on the piston and generally a higher volumetric efficiency. You have to find the sweet spot where the air flow of the engine and the fuel system is happiest together. Fuel system wear affects injection duration, which is how long the injector is injecting fuel after the first injection relative to the timing of the pump. So lets say youre at 8* with a stock na engine and new fuel system... Lets say with injection starting at 8* and with a new stock setup you are injecting fuel for 10* after the start of injection. Lets call that 10* of injection to be the baseline, so a 100% injection duration. Now lets say that fuel system gets 50k miles of wear, and you readjust the timing back to 8*, with the additional wear lest say youre at 75% of the original injection duration, so injection ends after 7.5* degrees after the start of injection. Because of this, even with the same volume of fuel, same timing and fuel system your engine is going to want a bit more base timing to cheat it back closer to the same timing setup it was stock, so on paper you would split the 2.5* loss in half and add 1.5* to get a base timing of 9.5* which would set the fuel system as close to its original setup as you could without changing your fueling. When you increase fueling you typically increase injection duration, but by how much depends on the fuel system's wear, so there's really no way to say which way timing needs to go from where it is now, you just gotta play with it either way and see what it likes.

For the sake of a (not really) simple explanation, lets say youre at 125% injection duration with your fuel adjustment and at 8* base timing, 25% of the injection duration is going out the exhaust in the form of thermal/kinetic energy. Lets say with that adjustment, your engine is at a 75% volumetric efficiency. Think of volumetric efficiency as just an efficiency rating for your engine. Power adders like turbos add volumetric efficiency by artificially increasing the atmospheric pressure in the form of boost (nitrous, water **** are a different story). So when tuning these engine you have to compromise between the volumetric efficiency of the engine and more energy used to increase the V.E by increasing turbo output. For example, you may lose 5% engine volumetric efficiency by retarding the timing 2* but gain 10% V.E by increasing the boost by 2lbs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clb

DrCharles

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Posts
1,093
Reaction score
732
Location
West Plains, MO
All makes sense except for one thing: if the injection duration decreases due to pump wear, doesn't the volume have to drop also? The volume would stay the same at a shorter duration only if the pressure went UP which is not happening with worn parts.

Or is the injector also wearing to a lower pop pressure, which also could only increase the volume back to 100% by increasing the duration. My brain hurts.

Anyway I think I'm going to leave the timing alone until you rebuild my turbo. Then I can start fine-tuning...
 

FordGuy100

Registered User
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Posts
8,749
Reaction score
282
Location
Silverton, OR
Injector pop pressure does go down with age. I don't think there is any rule for a direct correlation between pop pressure lowering and injection pump wear, or at least none that I have found, besides knowing they both go down with age.
 

Thewespaul

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Posts
8,796
Reaction score
8,058
Location
Bulverde, Texas
As pop pressure goes down it will drop the injection duration slightly but its the ip that really controls the volume. As the pump wears it will lose volume, most hot starting pumps put out 55-65cc of fuel at peak. The pump creates flow but if the plungers have significant leak by when hot it will never build the pressure needed to open the injectors.
 

DrCharles

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Posts
1,093
Reaction score
732
Location
West Plains, MO
Too many variables for me to keep track of ;) I am almost sure my truck has far more than the 189K miles displayed on the PSOM. So who knows the mileage and wear on the current IP & injectors...

But it makes plenty of smoke now with 7 psi boost, so I assume that's quite a bit more than the stock output on the NA valve cover label... it ought to clean up once the turbo is capable of 10 psi and I won't push it beyond 12 without studs anyway.
 

FordGuy100

Registered User
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Posts
8,749
Reaction score
282
Location
Silverton, OR
IIRC one turn of the wastegate rod will adjust pressure by 1 psi. It might need to be adjusted more. When I first got my turbo it was set at 9psi, Russ lengthened it 2 turns and brought me down to 7psi. And it was slow to climb the last psi or so iirc (10 years ago now).

But then again unless somebody has touched it, it should be doing 7psi ish as I believe thats what the factory turbo's were set at.
 

DrCharles

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Posts
1,093
Reaction score
732
Location
West Plains, MO
That sounds about right. That "somebody" is me - I think somewhere earlier in this growing thread, I mentioned that I'd shortened the rod 3 turns :)

Also I tried a run with the actuator line disconnected and plugged, and it didn't make any more boost.
 

Oledirtypearl86

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2018
Posts
1,673
Reaction score
949
Location
Whitehall MT
Too many variables for me to keep track of ;) I am almost sure my truck has far more than the 189K miles displayed on the PSOM. So who knows the mileage and wear on the current IP & injectors...

But it makes plenty of smoke now with 7 psi boost, so I assume that's quite a bit more than the stock output on the NA valve cover label... it ought to clean up once the turbo is capable of 10 psi and I won't push it beyond 12 without studs anyway.

Have you put a load behind your truck yet I know m truck builds a little more boost when I have a load behind it
 

DrCharles

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Posts
1,093
Reaction score
732
Location
West Plains, MO
Don't have anything heavy to pull. I will see what it does on my next trip to the sawmill for a load of wood (a little over a ton to stay within GVWR).

Flat on the floor at 50-80 mph in 5th gear should be enough load to get to wastegate opening ;)
 
Top