The Banks Vs Banks Thread||T04b vs Te06h|| ...not another turbo thread

jay22day

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With a fresh new style waste-gated sidewinder on the way. I now have the option of fitting a new style in place of my old style non-wastegated.


But who's to say that's the best option?

Yeah the wastegate adds to its performance, spool time, higher boost pressure, ability to be more efficient at higher boost and rpm.

But limits its performance by rising the egts. more so limits the amount of boost it can push into the engine because of the resulting high egt.

Could better numbers in-turn be made by the non-gated with a moded compressor, considering it would run lower egts, higher boost levels could be allowed to enter the engine (with the assumption of course that one has supporting fuel and engine mods)

has anyone pushed the banks beyond its 15psi stock gate pressure? does anyone know where it looses its efficiency after 15psi? ive seen some high psi ats turbos moded but have yet to see a moded banks gated-turbo.

also the to4b is obviously easier to source parts as the teo6h is a pita! but lets leave those facts on the sidelines for this determination.
 

FORDF250HDXLT

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has anyone pushed the banks beyond its 15psi stock gate pressure?

they don't come set that high.they are set about the same as the oem kits of approx 9 - 9.5 range.

more so limits the amount of boost it can push into the engine because of the resulting high egt.

intercooler.;Really
 

icanfixall

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As the boost increases on the wastegated Banks the inlet temp shoots thru th moon. At about 14 lbs boost WITHOUT AN INTERCOOLER the air going into the intake is around 300 plus degrees. This is why the intercooler is a requirement boosting much more than 13 to 14 lbs. The turbo is beating the life out of the air inlet charge. Now hot air in means even hotter air out. So yes, the exhaust becomes hotter but only because the inlet is hotter. Someone did a nice job by posting a map of the different turbos available for our engine.
 

hce

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Could sky rocket egt with the a non gated banks, with a stock pump turned up. Still can sky rocket egt with the gated banks, but also pushing more fuel with a moose pump.
When I swapped to a wastegated it was a night and day difference in seat of the pants feel. The non waste gated was just lazy in comparison.
Has anyone ever installed a air temp gauge to measure inlet temps?
 

PwrSmoke

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In looking at dyno charts and dyno test data collected over the years, the wastegated vs non-wastegated kits develop essentially the same peak boost and power. Peak torque is nearly the same number but with the wastegated, it comes in a little sooner. The only potential downside is higher EGTs and higher drive pressure... mostly occurring at max power or under heavy loads.

For the most part, this is a bench racing debate. A PROPERLY SIZED TURBO ON A PROPERLY SET UP ENGINE (correct fuel rates) with a wastegated turbo will not produce terminal EGTs vs a non-wastegated and vice versa. A PROPERLY SIZED non-wastegated turbo will not have excessive turbo lag, but it's low rpm performance will not be as snappy as the wastegated unit. If you want to fine tune the choice- if your truck does a LOT of steady speed towing at highway speeds and with heavy loads, the non-wastegated is probably the best overall choice. It will be dialed in for that situation and deliver EGTs some hundreds of degrees lower and cooler intake temps within the RPM range the engine is tuned for. If the truck is used often as a daily driver, fun hotrod, dyno toy, drag racer and occasional tower/hauler, the wastegated will deliver the expected performance and off-line snap at the cost of higher, but not usually terminally higher, EGTs in the full-load, steady state towing/hauling situation. In the latter case, the driver can compensate somewhat by controlling the foot feed and with gear selection, plus you can add devices to help bring the temps down (a degree lower on the intake side results in a degree lower on the outlet).

Also, look at the competition engines. Do any of them use wastegated turbos? Few... none I've seen in the more potent classes. Certainly only in the low end classes of pulling. Why? A properly sized non-wastegated turbo flows more air, in and out, for lower temps, lower drive pressure etc. Of course it's at that narrow rpm range where the power is deemed to be needed.

Bottom line, the wastegated turbo is an expedient, a compromise, to improve low speed performance. A very well designed non-wastegated system can usually equal it, but it's a lot harder and more expensive to develop so....


A Long Aside-

I do NOT understand this obsession with a high boost number (well, I do but...). Higher is NOT better and lower is not necessarily worse when you look at the whole picture. It's safe to say... the guys that originally designed the turbo kits for the IDIs are probably smarter and more experienced than most of us (I've met Gale Banks and Jim Bensen-inventor of the ATS kit- and they are certainly smarter than me...) and did more testing than most of us will ever have the opportunity to do. Around 10 psi is the commonality with all the aftermarket kits and you can bet that number was not just pulled out of some gearhead's ******. It was arrived at from a lot of testing and maybe a blown-up engine, or a few.

The problem, I think, is that people are comparing DI engines (which now far outnumber IDIs) with IDIs and combined with the "bigger is better" philosophy that infects all of us, people want, and think they need, these insane high numbers so they can match the DI guys for brag gin' rights. Because of the combustion chamber design, DI engines can tolerate... actually need... more boost than IDIs. Too much airflow actually begins to interfere with the IDI combustion process a little because it starts in that tiny Ricardo chamber. With the IDI, it isn't quite as simple as filling the main combustion chamber with as much air and fuel as possible. You are injecting thru the pre chamber but air is flowing into the main chamber, which is MUCH smaller than an DI so there is less room for the mixture that goes boom. Pushing too much fuel into the pre combustion chamber (which has limited airflow) can really dampen the combustion process. You can increase the chamber size, either the main or the pre combustion, which drops the CR, but the result is "other" trouble. Less efficient combustion when the chamber is cool, hard cold starting, loss of low rpm snap, etc. You can make that tradeoff situation work for a toy but not very well for a daily driver. There is an upper limit for boost on IDIs and it's MUCH lower than DI. The PRACTICAL day-to-day boost limit for IDIs is even lower if you think about daily driving. Where that is.. I don't know. Certainly below 20 psi and probably below 15. I don't know if this has all been worked out, or if it has, it's in some obscure technical journal. I do know that the diesel industry went to DI and that's the telling industry change. They did it for a reason. Look at what power levels those DI engine are at these days, not to mention the extremely low emissions vs the IDIs. The IDI was taken about as far as it could go and the industry moved on. Practicality rules.

Back to boost. Think of it this way: Pressure, boost pressure included, can be considered the absence of flow. If you pump 100 gpm thru a 2-1/2 inch fire hose, you get about 80 psi (if I remember my basic firefighting crap correctly). You pump 100 GPM thru a 1-1/2 inch fire hose, you get nearly 200. 200 is better right. The number is higher right? Well, yeah, but it's meaningless because the actual rate of flow is the same. Any type of passage will flow a certain amount at a reasonable pressure. Pressure is the "push" that increases flow but the flow rate vs the pressure are on a curve. As the passage reaches it's maximum flow, pressure rises exponentially. There is a magic number for any passage. The flow rate increases with pressure, but much more slowly than the pressure so it's a case of diminished returns when you consider the other aspect.. heat. The more you pressurize air, the more it heats up. The more it heats up, the more it expands and the more pressure is created as it's being pushed thru the passage (not to mention higher EGTs- hotter in, hotter out). An intercooler cools the air and what happens to the pressure? It drops. Actual airflow may actually increase at that point, even if pressure is lower, because the cooler, contracted, more oxygen dense air can move more easily thru the passage. It certainly moves the intake and exhaust temps down and even with the lower pressure, the engine is actually breathing more air and making more power with lower EGTs.

The amount of power is limited by the amount of air and fuel that can be pumped into a cylinder in the correct ratio. Power is not created by increasing boost pressure, not all by itself, any more than power being created by injecting more fuel all by itself. It's all an equation and you have to look at ALL the numbers to get a good answer... the right answer.
 

jay22day

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WITHOUT AN INTERCOOLER the air going into the intake is around 300 plus degrees. This is why the intercooler is a requirement boosting much more than 13 to 14 lbs. The turbo is beating the life out of the air inlet charge. Now hot air in means even hotter air out. So yes, the exhaust becomes hotter but only because the inlet is hotter. Someone did a nice job by posting a map of the different turbos available for our engine.

born a turbo gasser ive always believed intercoolers are a essential parts of any turbo system and without them your loosing dire heat transfer witch heavily effect efficiency and capability of boost levels!

although i do believe the restrictive nature of the waste-gated turbo does have a problem shedding exhaust temperatures. Seems ive heard at max boost the waste-gated runs a higher egt than the non-gated.
 

jay22day

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pwrsmoke: i dont beleave in the whole, drop your c/r to obtain more boost. i mean your dropping your compression ratio just so you can raise it in another way (with the turbo), loosing driv-ability and cold-start-ability is just counter productive to me.

i dont really have the bigger is better philosophy. I mean my toy is a 2.0L mitsu 4g63T that can eat 30psi out of a holset, thats as much air as the 01 auto cumins eats stock, maybe more. So size definitely is not the answer. John sheppard lays down over 1200hp with a 2.0. that makes like 60 psi, maybe more now.

--lets not get off topic though

boost is power as long as you dont leave the turbo's efficiency range and have the fuel to keep up with it and supporting mod.


so your vote was non-gated right for towing purposes?

seems more appealing to me to mod the non-gated housing to make a little more boost or maybe not higher boost pressure but higher CFM.
 

jay22day

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HCE: so you saw and felt a significant difference in turbo spool with the new style compared to the non-gated?
 

FORDF250HDXLT

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it's news to me all this talk about the banks sidewinder running high EGT's.i suppose running just a maxed n/a ip with an intercooler doesn't make for a surprise that iv never heard about this concern before though i guess.i wonder who's actually experiencing issues?
 

sjwelds

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Shucks.....my ATS 093 setup on a tweaked (a ways) fuel screw can easily hit 1000 degrees plus empty. That's on the truck in my sig.

I do want an intercooler.................
 

jay22day

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thanks for info sherwin! seems to me anything wastegated is probably going to run a higher egt than non-wastegated. Do you like your ats' spool/boost curve?
 

PwrSmoke

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pwrsmoke: i dont beleave in the whole, drop your c/r to obtain more boost. i mean your dropping your compression ratio just so you can raise it in another way (with the turbo), loosing driv-ability and cold-start-ability is just counter productive to me.

i dont really have the bigger is better philosophy. I mean my toy is a 2.0L mitsu 4g63T that can eat 30psi out of a holset, thats as much air as the 01 auto cumins eats stock, maybe more. So size definitely is not the answer. John sheppard lays down over 1200hp with a 2.0. that makes like 60 psi, maybe more now.

--lets not get off topic though

boost is power as long as you dont leave the turbo's efficiency range and have the fuel to keep up with it and supporting mod.


so your vote was non-gated right for towing purposes?

seems more appealing to me to mod the non-gated housing to make a little more boost or maybe not higher boost pressure but higher CFM.


You're mixing gassers and diesels. Two different animals. One is a throttled engine, the other is not.

But again, it's the combustion chamber design on the IDI that limits practical boost. Your "boost=power" comment applies mostly to DI diesels and gassers. You can boost the IDI as high as you like but at a certain point, as I said in the 15 psi range, it's a case of diminished returns considering the other mods you are likely to HAVE to do. Again, this is in the context of a daily driver.

I know some guys who have gone the drop the CR route on IDIs. As you surmised, it was counter productive on a daily driver level. Once guy went as low as 18:1 IIRC. Significant loss of low end and starting issues. I have a Farmall tractor with a 100 hp Neuss DI diesel with a 16:1 CR. It's about impossible to start below 40F without either or being plugged in. You also don't want to let it idle or try to warm it up by idling. It will start with the white smoke and slobber like an infant, and really load the crankcase with fuel. That unit gets "dynamic warmups" and as little idling as possible. When that old Neuss gets hot after heavy tillage (9 shank chisel or 4-16 moldboard plow) in this notorious NW Ohio Paulding Clay, it doesn't even sound like a diesel. Virtually no knock! If it didn't have 8,500 house on it, and I had more money, I'd turbocharge it! But I digress.

It it came to a vote wategate vs non, I would abstain. I see both sides of it. When I installed the turbo on my Ford in '87, non-wastegated was my only choice. Overall I was happy. For about 80K miles of it's life, all that truck did WAS tow... sometimes at 19,000 GCVWR. Now, it's more of a toy and I wouldn't mind a little more low rpm snap. For about five years I played with a GM 6.2L diesel with the Sidewinder kit on it. You had the choice of a wastegated or non-wastegated turbo with that kit. I chose non. Later, I borrowed a wastegated turbo from another kit to play with. You could feel the difference at low rpm, quite significantly, but EGTs were higher by 100F at the same fuel setting going 75 mph down the road. Peak boost was about the same, 10-11,until I tinkered with the boost rod a bit (15psi IIRC). I didn't think it amounted to much on the power scale but it did result in a significant EGT jump. This experiment, combined with other data collected, forms the basis of my anecdotal observations of wastegated vs non performance. While I had the non-wastegated engine on a dyno, I didn't have the opportunity to test the wastegated turbo for the month or so I used it.
 

PwrSmoke

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it's news to me all this talk about the banks sidewinder running high EGT's.i suppose running just a maxed n/a ip with an intercooler doesn't make for a surprise that iv never heard about this concern before though i guess.i wonder who's actually experiencing issues?

You are overstating. It's "higher" not "high." At the same fuel setting and the same load, the wastegated turbo will produce higher EGTs. That's mostly at the higher rpms or heavy loads. Again, that is an issue mostly for those who tow heavy and for long periods. Try towing over the Rockies at 19,000 GCVWR. Even with a free flowing non-w turbo with conservative fuel settings, you can achieve terminal EGTs. The w-turbo is terminal + 100-200 degrees at the same fuel settings. If you are trying not to melt your pistons, 100-200 is significant... to me anyway. As I mentioned above, with a 6.2L GM, everything else being the same, the w-turbo produced about 100F more EGT.
 
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sjwelds

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thanks for info sherwin! seems to me anything wastegated is probably going to run a higher egt than non-wastegated. Do you like your ats' spool/boost curve?

In a word: Yes.

I haven't paid that close attention to where the boost starts to build but it's probably around 1600-1800 rpm. But even before you see any movement of the boost gauge you can feel the extra power. I look at it this way. When my truck was NA it was actually sucking to get air in to the engine. Now I'm turbo'd so even if I'm not "making boost" at least there isn't negative pressure. As in, the turbo is blowing air in, even tho it's not showing as boost on the gauge...

Make sense?? LOL
 

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