Operating Oil pressure?

snicklas

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^^^^ No, it's not. The timing gears are on the FRONT of the engine, and the HPOP sits up front. Spatially, it takes place of the injection pump on our trucks. Like our IP, it's driven by the camshaft gear. Like our IP, it generates very high pressure. Unlike our IP, it pressurizes engine oil to be used hydraulically. And unlike our IP, it has no timing; it just pressurizes two common oil rails that then split off to each injector in the cylinder heads.

Ok, I stand corrected.

The 7.3 PSD the HPOP is on the front of the engine, above the valley, run off the timing stack at the front.

The 6.0 PSD (which I am more familiar with) the HPOP is on the back of the engine, in the valley, run off the timing stack at the back of the engine.

The 2 pictures I used as reference above were of a 6.0, not a 7.3
 

madpogue

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And I learned something new; did not know that about the 6.0. The 7.3 PSD will be more familiar to this crowd, since it's the natural-born child of the 7.3 IDI.
 

PwrSmoke

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I'm sorry that I did not use the 'Search' function,

No need to apologize. You asked what you asked and I replied. Both were within the limits of politeness.

What I find more telling is that nobody has yet looked up the previous posts and found the real answer, which is NOT 10 psi/1000 rpm for the IDI.

There is a FACTORY SPEC for oil pressure based on oil grade, oil temperature and engine speed and that's the RIGHT answer. There are no opinions nor consensus on established specifications from the engine manufacturer.

If I put the specs out for the fourth time, will anyone take note, or will the next post in which this question is asked be an exact repeat of this one?

I quote myself: "The service manual lists 10 psi idle and 40-70 psi at 2200 rpm with hot 15W40 oil (exact temp not specified, presumably ~200F as with most other engine mfrs.). The IDI lube system is a low pressure, high volume system."

Look here: http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...s-your-oil-pressure-at&highlight=oil+pressure for the May 23 exchange with the facts in it. To find it, I typed "Oil Pressure" in the "Search forum" box, top right and it was down about halfway on the page.

I will add that when I started using 10W30 in mine again (when I bought it nearly new I used 10W30 but that grade in HDEO became hard to find for a few years so I went to 15W40), the oil pressure was 4-6 lbs. lower at high speeds than 15W40 with the oil at the same temp.
 
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Andertusa

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If I put the specs out for the fourth time, will anyone take note, or will the next post in which this question is asked be an exact repeat of this oneI quote myself: "The service manual lists 10 psi idle and 40-70 psi at 2200 rpm with hot 10W40 oil (exact temp not specified, presumably ~200F as with most other engine mfrs.). The IDI lube system is a low pressure, high volume system."

Look here: http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...s-your-oil-pressure-at&highlight=oil+pressure for the May 23 exchange with the facts in it. To find it, I typed "Oil Pressure" in the "Search forum" box, top right and it was down about halfway on the page.

I will add that when I started using 10W30 in mine again (when I bought it nearly new I used 10W30 but that grade in HDEO became hard to find for a few years so I went to 15W40), the oil pressure was 4-6 lbs. lower at high speeds than 15W40 with the oil at the same temp.



I find that interesting, that the factory list 10w-40, as it seems most diesels run 15w-40, good to know though, and thank you for all your input. ;Really
 

PwrSmoke

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I find that interesting, that the factory list 10w-40, as it seems most diesels run 15w-40, good to know though, and thank you for all your input. ;Really

Whoops! That 10W40 was a typo, which I just corrected.

There are 10W40 HDEO oils today, however, and they offer better cold and cool oil flow but I still prefer 10W30 for my situation as the viscosity spread relies less on the Viscosity Index Improvers (VII)in the oil. and they are cheaper than the 5W40s. Shear resistance was the weak link in the old multigrade oils , especial the 10W40 formulations (API-S oils for gassers... I don't know of any older 10W40 API-C for diesels). The older VIIs in the oil were not robust so the oil sheared down to a light grade as it was worked. The VIIs in an oil makes the base oil THICKER as the oil warms and when they fail, the oil reverts back to it's base viscosity. In a 40 grade, the base oil could be in the viscosity range of a 20 grade oil. Diesels, especially those with timing gears instead of chains, tend to really chew the oil. The HPOP in HUEI Powerstroke is especially ******* oil and can shear a 15W40 down to 30 grade in 3K miles.

Of course, in diesels, the oil tends to thicken as the soot load increases, so it balances the shearing out somewhat. The cold flow characteristics go in the toilet once the oil thickens from soot, of course. The last oil analysis I did on my big tractor, the soot was at 3%, the limit listed by the engine manufacturer and the oil had thickened to the top of the 40 grade from about the first third of the range (I always have a ****** analysis done of whatever oil I am using so I can gauge changes in the used samples). I was running the oil out as far as possible based on the soot load rather than some arbitrary hours number that does not reflect oil condition. Other than the soot, the oil was fine and I extended the OCI by about 35%, thus saving money with no risk to the equipment. I came out ahead even considering the cost of oil analysis.

In the old days, the safest bet to avoid shearing was to use an oil where the winter rating (the "W" number) was close to the hot rating and that's how 15W40 oils came to be. They offered much better cold flow than a straight 30 or 40 grade and, in light duty use like pickups, it was a LOT more robust than the 10W30 SF/CD dual rated oils Ford liked at the time. The 15W40 oils were very shear resistant versus a 10W40 and were dual rated for gas or diesel. Today, a 5W40 grade HDEO oil is as shear resistant as an old 15W40, so we have a lot more freedom in our oil choices. Again, I still like 10W30 because my truck doesn't work all that hard any more and my operating oil temps allow the use of a lighter oil. Saves fuel and aids cold startup.
 

Andertusa

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Whoops! That 10W40 was a typo, which I just corrected.

There are 10W40 HDEO oils today, however, and they offer better cold and cool oil flow but I still prefer 10W30 for my situation as the viscosity spread relies less on the Viscosity Index Improvers (VII)in the oil. and they are cheaper than the 5W40s. Shear resistance was the weak link in the old multigrade oils , especial the 10W40 formulations (API-S oils for gassers... I don't know of any older 10W40 API-C for diesels). The older VIIs in the oil were not robust so the oil sheared down to a light grade as it was worked. The VIIs in an oil makes the base oil THICKER as the oil warms and when they fail, the oil reverts back to it's base viscosity. In a 40 grade, the base oil could be in the viscosity range of a 20 grade oil. Diesels, especially those with timing gears instead of chains, tend to really chew the oil. The HPOP in HUEI Powerstroke is especially ******* oil and can shear a 15W40 down to 30 grade in 3K miles.

Of course, in diesels, the oil tends to thicken as the soot load increases, so it balances the shearing out somewhat. The cold flow characteristics go in the toilet once the oil thickens from soot, of course. The last oil analysis I did on my big tractor, the soot was at 3%, the limit listed by the engine manufacturer and the oil had thickened to the top of the 40 grade from about the first third of the range (I always have a ****** analysis done of whatever oil I am using so I can gauge changes in the used samples). I was running the oil out as far as possible based on the soot load rather than some arbitrary hours number that does not reflect oil condition. Other than the soot, the oil was fine and I extended the OCI by about 35%, thus saving money with no risk to the equipment. I came out ahead even considering the cost of oil analysis.

In the old days, the safest bet to avoid shearing was to use an oil where the winter rating (the "W" number) was close to the hot rating and that's how 15W40 oils came to be. They offered much better cold flow than a straight 30 or 40 grade and, in light duty use like pickups, it was a LOT more robust than the 10W30 SF/CD dual rated oils Ford liked at the time. The 15W40 oils were very shear resistant versus a 10W40 and were dual rated for gas or diesel. Today, a 5W40 grade HDEO oil is as shear resistant as an old 15W40, so we have a lot more freedom in our oil choices. Again, I still like 10W30 because my truck doesn't work all that hard any more and my operating oil temps allow the use of a lighter oil. Saves fuel and aids cold startup.

I posted that, then I recalled seeing and hearing about some diesels running 20w-50 too. :dunno
 

PwrSmoke

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Yeah, there are HDEO 20W50 and they would be extremely shear resistant. Too thick for 95% of applications but very shear resistant. There are also some 15W50 HDEO. I remember once seeing a 25W60 on the market in Australia, I think.

Those heavy oils are only useful in very hot climates or for an engine that runs hot for long periods of time, i.e.long haul truckers, marine, generators, construction, etc. Very bad for cold weather, short hops or stop-n-go where the oil never has a chance to warm up and thin out. Thick oil doesn't flow and tends to put the oil filter into bypass more often, or all the time in some cases. Running an oil too thick for the ambient temp and operating environment results in more unfiltered oil being run thru the engine. I know exactly when the bypass opens on my gas truck, by oil temp and pressure differential (I have two pressure gauges, one on each side of the oil filter to measure pressure differential) and know the exact bypass setting of the filters I use. Unfortunately, I have never found the bypass spec for the IDI (the bypass is built into the filter head rather than in the filter like most engines) but that's not for lack of looking. I do know, generally speaking, that the chances where you can bypass the oil filter come at oil temps below 150F and at higher rpms. In other words, when the engine isn't fully warmed up, don't work it hard or run higher rpms if you can help it and you minimize filter bypass. Because of our oil coolers, which warms the oil as well as cool it, when you get coolant temp up, oil temp follows fairly quickly. In my experience, the coolant temp is at normal (for the ambient temp) within 5 miles of steady running on a day that is above about 50F. Within another five miles, the oil temp is usually there too, or close, so within 10 miles of steady running, the oil temp is at around 180F. You are safe from bypass there. One reason emergency vehicles have shorter engine lives than some is that they go from cold start to WOT without a warmup, so the filter is bypass all the time. That's why some emergency vehicle operators use block and oil pan heaters year around.

All this is one reason an oil temp gauge can be very useful in choosing an oil viscosity. You monitor operating oil temps and choose an oil that matches the oil temp. Remember, oil doesn't reach it's rated warm viscosity until it's at 212F (100C). A 40 grade is a range of actual viscosities measured in Centistokes (cST), which is from 12.5 cST to 16.29 cST at 212F for 40 grade. An oil can be call a "40 grade" when the warm viscosity grade falls within that range and some oil's "blueprint specs" are at the thin end and others at the thick, not accounting for variations in batches. That same oil at a cooler temperature is much thicker, so a 40 grade at 180F could be as thick as a 50-60 grade oil at 212F and not flow well at all (and bypass more often).

In my own case, the way I now use the truck, the oil temp on my old '86 seldom (basically never) gets to, or past, 190F. The water-to-oil oil cooler warms it up in 10-15 miles of driving ( the range to account for ambient temp) to approximately the same temp as the coolant but if I won't work the truck hard or run for long distances hours at a time, it never gets any higher and is usually lower in cold weather. At the 180-190 range, a standard 15W40 is running at the middle to upper range of a 50 grade, not to mention cooler weather. A synthetic oil with a high Viscosity Index (5W40, for example, a higher viscosity index is an indicator of an oil where the viscosity is less effected by temps) will do better in this regard and will flow better, but I don't use them due to the extra cost. My cost effective answer is 10W30 (Rotella T5, a semi-synthetic) which operates in the low to middle 40 grade area at my normal temps but flows well cold or cool and is very shear resistant.

You can do a quick-n-dirty check with the oil pressure gauge (must be a "real" one that is undampened). You make a cold start, the pressure is much, sometimes VERY MUCH higher. Pressure is resistance to flow. As the oil warms up, it thins out and flows better and oil pressure goes down. If you have a real gauge with numbers on it, you can get a rough idea on whether you are using the right oil grade if you start keeping records. It will take some time and a season to do, but here goes. In the summer, run the snot out of the truck for a decently long period, at least 50 miles to be sure, or a long grade in hot temps, long enough to get the oil temp very hot. Under those circumstances, that is likely to be in the 212F range (might be higher so if you live in AZ, use common sense). Record idle oil pressure and at 2200 rpm (the stock oil pressure rpm spec). Then start recording oil pressure at idle and 2200 in a variety of conditions, cold start, short hops and most importantly, at the times when you are driving your truck as you normally do, the way your truck operates MOST OF THE TIME. If you see much higher NORMAL pressure readings than your HOT readings, you may be running oil that's too thick for the temp and operating conditions or with too low a Viscosity Index. You can do a better job if you can also measure oil temperature.

Shearing isn't really much of a problem for most of us in the IDI crowd (based on my own UOA and others I have seen from IDI). As I said earlier, the HPOP in the PSDs tends to chew on the oil a bit but after looking at more than a hundred oil analysis on them, the interesting thing is that they shear down to a 30 grade and that's it. If you install a 30 grade to start, it doesn't shear down any more.
 
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TahoeTom

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I can recall answering this question at least three times in the past 18 months or so, most recently just a couple of weeks ago. I'm in a bad mood today and will chastise lazy researchers by reminding everyone that the search feature on this site works very well. When this subject was discussed at length just a couple of weeks ago, the factory manual was quoted and much other useful information related.
Sounds like your mood has improved. This thread actually ended up containing lots of useful information. Thanks PwrSmoke.
 

franklin2

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No need to apologize. You asked what you asked and I replied. Both were within the limits of politeness.

What I find more telling is that nobody has yet looked up the previous posts and found the real answer, which is NOT 10 psi/1000 rpm for the IDI.

There is a FACTORY SPEC for oil pressure based on oil grade, oil temperature and engine speed and that's the RIGHT answer. There are no opinions nor consensus on established specifications from the engine manufacturer.

If I put the specs out for the fourth time, will anyone take note, or will the next post in which this question is asked be an exact repeat of this one?

I quote myself: "The service manual lists 10 psi idle and 40-70 psi at 2200 rpm with hot 15W40 oil (exact temp not specified, presumably ~200F as with most other engine mfrs.). The IDI lube system is a low pressure, high volume system."

Look here: http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...s-your-oil-pressure-at&highlight=oil+pressure for the May 23 exchange with the facts in it. To find it, I typed "Oil Pressure" in the "Search forum" box, top right and it was down about halfway on the page.

I will add that when I started using 10W30 in mine again (when I bought it nearly new I used 10W30 but that grade in HDEO became hard to find for a few years so I went to 15W40), the oil pressure was 4-6 lbs. lower at high speeds than 15W40 with the oil at the same temp.

OK, I looked in your link that had the specs, and I cannot find the factory definition of "idle" What is the factory idle speed for a idi? I could go out and look at the valve cover I guess, but mine was a automatic. Is a manual tranny different?
 

Andertusa

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OK, I looked in your link that had the specs, and I cannot find the factory definition of "idle" What is the factory idle speed for a idi? I could go out and look at the valve cover I guess, but mine was a automatic. Is a manual tranny different?



I'm no expert and I'm relaying what I recall, but I heard that the the auto engines are set to idle higher( like maybe 200rpm in a gasser) to put the trans more in-line with the powerband of the engine, because the automatic has slippage that allows you to sit at a light without taking it outta gear; well, to counter that, the idle is higher to put the trans at a point where you can start moving just by removing your foot from the brake. A stick gets revved too, but ift's not constantly fighting the trans mission slip, as it's only slipping when you are on the clutch to either go into or out of a gear. :dunno

Just the way I was told. :rolleyes:
 

PwrSmoke

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OK, I looked in your link that had the specs, and I cannot find the factory definition of "idle" What is the factory idle speed for a idi? I could go out and look at the valve cover I guess, but mine was a automatic. Is a manual tranny different?

The exact idle rpm would be in the service manual but a 50 rpm in either direction isn't going to make a huge difference in oil pressure. FYI, the idle speed is 675 rpm with an automatic in drive. That's about 750-800 or so in neutral.
 

Dieselcrawler

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Glad this got back on track. Please keep it there. I cleaned up the beginning of the thread.
 

Andertusa

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Thaank you Dieselcrawler, but I don't think it was needed, Powersmoke raised a valid point, and even if I was on the recieving end of his 'wrath', I valued his input on the thread. Either way, thank you, I guess that's why I am no moderator, I don't have that objectiveness. Thanks again sir. :D
 
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