Gunk, Shavings and No Start Condition. Misadventures in WMO Burning.

[TestDriver]

Well, this is one I have not found using the search function on this web site.

Two days ago, my truck stalled as I was pulling into my driveway at about midnight. Convenient but still a pain. It had not broken down on me before. Lots of cranking and even some ether later, I decided the fuel filter needed replacement. After removing it, I looked inside to find a strange sight. One of the filter element's pleats had folded completely into the filter outlet tube. I assumed this was the problem and a new filter would take care of it. Not so. After much cranking and more ether, I gave up till the next morning.

Yesterday morning, I bled the lines to the injectors and after some cranking, it came to life. Later in the day, I drove into town on an errand and it stalled as I was slowing down for an intersection. I never started and after I pulled it home, I thought more about the defective filter. My thought was, the filter may have torn as it folded in and let junk past it to the IP. So, I proceeded to to take the IP inlet cone off to clean the screen.

What I found was a lot of gunk had accumulated inside the cone itself but most of it fell out on removal. Nothing really stuck to the screen except for a lot of metal shavings. These I could not explain. I filter before fueling through automotive oil filters and the shavings should have been caught by then. So, I blamed the log type Ford oil cooler I've been using as having contamination in it. I had installed it after my last filter change and any leftover shavings could have been washed out of it and into the filter that eventually tore.

I proceeded to clean the cone, screen and the surfaces around them. Of note is, I also checked the top of the pump through the return port and there was fuel all the way up there, though the check valve seemed to be stuck closed. I cleaned the valve and reattached everything. After a bit of priming, it came back to life.

I went on the exact same route and it happened to me again! The thing stalled on another intersection! Now I'm befuddled.

Where else should I check for gunk? Does the top of the pump get fuel from the cone before of after the screen? Is there a way for the pump to fail and create shavings that show up in the dirty side of the inlet screen?

Here is more info. This happened on all three instances. While driving home two days ago, and after pulling out the next two times, I switched tanks to the rear tank. Up till now, that tank was fueled exclusively with straight diesel. On the last fill up, I pumped it full of a 2/3 veggie and 1/3 diesel mix.

When filling up with diesel, the rear tank had a bad habit of spitting up a good amount of fuel when it topped. I got the hang of it so it did not happen much after the first couple of times but still, it happened to some extent. Every time it did, the stuff coming out was very rusty and dirty looking. The first time it happened, this caused me concern. After a while, I stopped worrying about it and just drove. After all, nothing was going wrong and I was only using this tank for purging. Now, I'm wondering if putting the mix did something to release more contaminants into the fuel filter. Is this possible? The mix I put into it came from the same batch I had just burnt through in the front tank.

I think I'll check the newly installed filter for contaminants. If it's full of stuff, I'll replace it and proceed to install another filter before it. In the meantime, I'd appreciate help with the pump questions.

Thanks.

 

[jperecko]

I do not have much to offer but I am wondering what brand filter it wa that failed? Also how many miles were on it? This shows that you really need to keep up with changing those. I really hope you figure it all out.

 

[sassyrel]

test---stock ford oil filter is 20 micron nominal--which means its going to let more than just 20 mic thru until its close to plugged--the ip wont stand more than 5 microns,hence the filter on top of engine---soooooooo, you need to filter the wmo much finer before you throw it in the tank---hope you didnt already hurt the ip-------

 

[TestDriver]

test---stock ford oil filter is 20 micron nominal--which means its going to let more than just 20 mic thru until its close to plugged--the ip wont stand more than 5 microns,hence the filter on top of engine---soooooooo, you need to filter the wmo much finer before you throw it in the tank---hope you didnt already hurt the ip-------

Yup, I knew about this and accepted it with the expectation of replacing fuel filters at an accelerated rate. The added cost of frequent fuel filter replacements was more than offset by the fuel savings. However, I did not expect a filter to fail in this manner. I think it may have taken the IP out.

I was able to re-start it twice since I posted last. Before doing so, I installed a pressure gauge on the filter head, teeing off the filter pressure switch. It showed 3-4 psi while running with the pressure dropping as it revved. Using the electric lift pump, the pressure went up to 6 psi and it did not drop with revs much. In any case, if I revved it up for more than a few seconds, the engine would stall if I suddenly let the revs drop. I was able to restart it once more but it stalled again and I've been unable to do so again.

I checked on the air bleed between startups and there was some. However, it bleeds out very nicely with the electric pump. So, on top of everything, I may have an air leak as well .

It's too late now for me to do anything to it and I have to concentrate on my LeMons car for this coming weekends race. It'll stay this way till I can get to it next week again.

Thanks for your posts.

 

[Diesile]

I know you probably know this but just in case.....veggie oil is one great cleaning agent
when it comes to previously diesel only vessels.

 

[sassyrel]

Yup, I knew about this and accepted it with the expectation of replacing fuel filters at an accelerated rate. The added cost of frequent fuel filter replacements was more than offset by the fuel savings. However, I did not expect a filter to fail in this manner. I think it may have taken the IP out.

I was able to re-start it twice since I posted last. Before doing so, I installed a pressure gauge on the filter head, teeing off the filter pressure switch. It showed 3-4 psi while running with the pressure dropping as it revved. Using the electric lift pump, the pressure went up to 6 psi and it did not drop with revs much. In any case, if I revved it up for more than a few seconds, the engine would stall if I suddenly let the revs drop. I was able to restart it once more but it stalled again and I've been unable to do so again.

I checked on the air bleed between startups and there was some. However, it bleeds out very nicely with the electric pump. So, on top of everything, I may have an air leak as well .

It's too late now for me to do anything to it and I have to concentrate on my LeMons car for this coming weekends race. It'll stay this way till I can get to it next week again.

Thanks for your posts.

OUCH!!!! luckily, yu can find a used ip for very little on ebay. or go to www.car-part.com and you may find one for reasonable--

 

[TestDriver]

Filter Update

I had a chance to open up the faulty filter and inspect further. What I found was that it had indeed torn as it folded into the outlet tube. One of the pleats had come undone at the top bond completely and allowed all the stuff to get past. At least now I know for sure my pump was getting only roughly filtered fuel in.

Besides the torn pleat, the entire element seemed to have collapsed a bit towards the outlet. It had started to accordion perpendicular to the pleats. When I removed it, the water trap base would not come out because the plastic base had no pressure from the lower element plate as it had traveled up about .125 inch. I removed it by screwing a wood screw into the side of the filter by the plastic thread that holds the water trap.

I had been using the electric pump in conjunction with the lift pump producing a total of about 6 psi since the filter light had come on earlier. This, along with the construction of the Autozone house filter (I'd never heard of Luber Finer before) allowed for the failure that occurred. The replacements I have on hand are Racor units. Hopefully, they'll prove more robust.

On to search out a pump and injectors.

 

[RLDSL]

you need to pre filter your oil MUCH finer before you put it in your tank .
On my cars that I run veg /WMO on I pre filter down to 2 micron , after letting it settle for a week or much longer in most cases, then the filters on the cars last near forever. because it's cleaner than pump fuel

If you need a SERIOUS add on fuel filter /water-trash seperator for that thing and hve room to mount it, I can give you a good deal on a new Racor 777 I've got one that didn't fit where I wanted to mount the thing ( It's a tall sucker) I had to get a different style that was shorter.

 

[Ironman03R]

you need to pre filter your oil MUCH finer before you put it in your tank .
On my cars that I run veg /WMO on I pre filter down to 2 micron , after letting it settle for a week or much longer in most cases, then the filters on the cars last near forever. because it's cleaner than pump fuel

If you need a SERIOUS add on fuel filter /water-trash seperator for that thing and hve room to mount it, I can give you a good deal on a new Racor 777 I've got one that didn't fit where I wanted to mount the thing ( It's a tall sucker) I had to get a different style that was shorter.

Thats one awsome filter, what does something like that cost? And how much are the replacement elements?

 

[TestDriver]

you need to pre filter your oil MUCH finer before you put it in your tank .
On my cars that I run veg /WMO on I pre filter down to 2 micron , after letting it settle for a week or much longer in most cases, then the filters on the cars last near forever. because it's cleaner than pump fuel

If you need a SERIOUS add on fuel filter /water-trash seperator for that thing and hve room to mount it, I can give you a good deal on a new Racor 777 I've got one that didn't fit where I wanted to mount the thing ( It's a tall sucker) I had to get a different style that was shorter.

A centrifuge is in the plans. Like I said, I expected frequent filter replacements and had been getting by with this plan. If the filter I was using had not failed in such a manner, I'd still be driving it.

The centrifuge I'm working on will be my version of the commercially available pressure driven ones. It'll flow about 100 gallons/hour and the canister will be about a quart in size. This will clean my in-bed tank in about 3 hours of driving. That's just about how long the front tank of my truck will go.

I'm making one because buying a $500 unit does not go with the whole concept of my heretofore craigslist truck project. Nothing on it will be off the shelf or new.

 

[snicklas]

I had been using the electric pump in conjunction with the lift pump producing a total of about 6 psi since the filter light had come on earlier.

TestDriver,

I saw this in your post. I think everyone was reading about the filter carnage. You should run ONLY the lift pump OR an electric pump. By running both you can cause the diaphragm in the lift pump to fail and fill the crankcase of fuel...... a very bad thing.

You have a couple of options here, you can use the lift pump and plumb a bypass around it so it you wanted/need to use the electric pump you could, or some people that have converted to an electric pump, remove the lift pump and put a BBC blockoff plate on the engine. But running both can be very bad, like loose an engine bad.......

 

[icanfixall]

I agree with the above posting. If the fuel requires both pumps running just so the injection pump gets enough fuel then something needs to change. The crushing of the filter internals is telling you two things. Way too much pressure or way to thick of fuel. You will ruin the lift pump diaphram and then fill the crankcase with fuel. If that happens and you don't "catch it early" the oil gets so thin that the bearing fail.....

 

[RLDSL]

Thats one awsome filter, what does something like that cost? And how much are the replacement elements?

New the things are scary expensive, I'd let this one go pretty reasonable, it's just been sitting in the shop with me tripping over the box for the last 6 months. The filter elements arent too bad for this type because they aren't hard shell spin ons, they are paper ( or whatever the heck they are made out of)drop ins , they are aquabloc elements which is nice ( after having to have 100 gal pumped off at a truck stop up north in the winter from a bad batch, I wanted a filter that would handle ANYTHING)

 

[TestDriver]

TestDriver,

I saw this in your post. I think everyone was reading about the filter carnage. You should run ONLY the lift pump OR an electric pump. By running both you can cause the diaphragm in the lift pump to fail and fill the crankcase of fuel...... a very bad thing.

You have a couple of options here, you can use the lift pump and plumb a bypass around it so it you wanted/need to use the electric pump you could, or some people that have converted to an electric pump, remove the lift pump and put a BBC blockoff plate on the engine. But running both can be very bad, like loose an engine bad.......

In my fuel circuit, I have the electric pump after the mechanical pump so there is no possibility of damaging the diaphragm by pressurizing it with the electric pump. By itself, the electric pump can only do about 3 psi. Run together, they both get to about 6 psi. I did not think this is unreasonably high for a fuel filter to handle.

 

[icanfixall]

No... That wont kill a filter but.... Pushing too high of a viscosity fluid thru the filter will. Maybe the filter was not of a quality that could handle the fuel being forced thru it and maybe when the filter was loaded up it started to collaspe. Did you ever see the filter lite on the dash come on???