Flywheel Fiasco

Thewespaul

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Your clutch is fine and so is your trans. Your injectors.... are not. Like franklin said I can hear you’ve got some injectors firing much sooner than others. If you send the injectors to me I can clean them up and pressure match them. If it doesn’t help you don’t owe me a dime :)
 

BrianX128

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Yeah of all of the smf videos I've watched in preparation for doing mine to know what to expect I've never seen this.

Which I actually think might be a good thing for you, messing with some injectors is less troublesome then trans issues.

The other thing is, my truck sounded exactly like yours with my dmf starting to die- the night I had an injector hard line completely snap I half and drove it home 20 miles on 7 cylinders. Fuel everywhere. But the sound went away on acceleration like yours. I thought my dmf was gonna come through the floor and the whole truck shook at idle. Put a new hard line in, and all was right in the world. 40k miles on it since even with the dmf I posted a video of in this thread. Dmf has at worse got 1/16" worse since that night I got home and misdiagnosed it through the inspection plate and then noticed the smell of fuel and corresponding mess years ago. But I still want to replace it just to be safe.

I'd bet you have fuel leaking near an injector or a failed injector entirely.
 

BrianX128

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Does yours sound like this at idle? Ignore your trans noise and just try to compare to the engine.

This 6.9 (granted it has a T19 but it had a new smf flywheel), I had just put 8 new injectors in and one of them wasn't tightened down right and was leaking and firing at the wrong time.

It did not sound great inside the cab either. Different set of circumstances with a different trans that doesn't make that much noise with a different flywheel and whatnot, but I think Wes is on the right track.
 

renjaminfrankln

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Thanks for all the replies. (Sincerely, thank you!)

None of the injectors leak or anything like that. I cleaned the bores, old copper washers came out, I torqued them to spec with a $$$$ torque wrench and the proper 1" socket. Caps are tight, no leaks. Timing is spot on at 8 deg btdc @2000 rpm

I agree that there is an issue with injectors. I have noticed the idle is not great. This is probably what was causing my worn DMF to rattle so bad at idle. The late, great Towcat, suggested in one of my threads that a bad injector was causing my DMF to rattle. He was definitely right, however my DMF had so much slop in it (an inch or two) I figured it was trashed anyway. Also trashed was my pilot bearing, so the transmission did need to come out.

I cant quite understand why it would be loud on deceleration and light throttle inputs, but not under heavy acceleration. Maybe because the pressure is lower, that one or two injectors don't pop/ fire at all? When the accelerator is pushed in, pressures come up and all the injectors start firing? That is where my main issue is. Is there anything I can do to make sure this is the case because I would like to verify this before I let the transmission shop off the hook :)

Just thinking out loud, if I was decelerating at say 1500 RPM, and I shut the engine off, fuel to the injectors should cease. At this point they should all be inoperative, (and balanced), and the grinding/roar noise should go away?

Wes if this is an injector problem I will be happy to buy a set from you.

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Thewespaul

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IDIs don’t defuel, this is to help keep the injectors cooled otherwise they would be cooled when coasting down a mountain pass after making a tough summit. You can see this by coasting down a hill in gear, then shutting off the engine and you will hear a distinct change in engine noise.

I would try to pressure match the injectors you have before investing in another set, the nozzles I’ve seen Pensacola use are pretty good, they are completely new from overseas. Likely the same stuff another highly recommended company uses. The difference is Pensacola doesn’t seem to believe in pressure matching them, they just send them out as assembled. Saves money on labor I guess
 

laserjock

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That sounds like either a fuel system or other engine mechanical issue to me.

Gear rollover noise stops when you shove in the clutch because the gears quit spinning.
 

renjaminfrankln

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That sounds like either a fuel system or other engine mechanical issue to me.

Gear rollover noise stops when you shove in the clutch because the gears quit spinning.

Noise continues with clutch in. Makes a grinding noise in neutral with the clutch in, revving engine up/down.

Makes same noise when clutch is in between gears.

Not saying it isn't injection related.
 

Dirtleg

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This may be a longshot but I had a grinding noise in the drivetrain of my 07' Mustang GT.

It was maddening and took forever to figure out. Car was pretty much undriveable during this process.

Turned out it was an imperceptibly loose flywheel. I mean I took a pry bar and couldn't make it flex or move noticeably. After pulling the transmission for the 3rd time I just removed if to check the mating surfaces. Everything was perfect and I bolted it back on and torqued it properly. Didn't find or fix anything else and the noise was gone. Been 2 years and hasn't come back.

Here is a video.
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Thewespaul

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You can rule out the fuel system by shutting the engine off while decelerating, if the noise goes away then it’s fuel related. If it doesn’t then you know it’s something else.
 

renjaminfrankln

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You can rule out the fuel system by shutting the engine off while decelerating, if the noise goes away then it’s fuel related. If it doesn’t then you know it’s something else.


I will give that a try. Pretty sure it’s not going to go away. The truck is basically undrivable.

This may be a longshot but I had a grinding noise in the drivetrain of my 07' Mustang GT.

It was maddening and took forever to figure out. Car was pretty much undriveable during this process.

Turned out it was an imperceptibly loose flywheel. I mean I took a pry bar and couldn't make it flex or move noticeably. After pulling the transmission for the 3rd time I just removed if to check the mating surfaces. Everything was perfect and I bolted it back on and torqued it properly. Didn't find or fix anything else and the noise was gone. Been 2 years and hasn't come back.

Here is a video.
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Sounds exactly like my problem. The description anyway, hard to hear anything in the video. I wonder what else they could have screwed up. Does anyone happen to have one of these kits (Luke 07225) laying around with instructions?

Does the clutch friction plate go in a certain way? Depending on rotation direction of the engine?
 
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Dirtleg

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Clutch friction plates are not symmetrical. They are raised on the side facing the transmission. Never seen one put in backwards.
 

laserjock

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Crap! It’s possible they put the disk in backwards and it’s rubbing. My truck was done wrong when I bought it.
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Rivets were running the flywheel bolts.

This was the DMF setup in the truck when I got it FYI. It self clearanced because it didn’t make any noise the tiny bit that I drove it.
 
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renjaminfrankln

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You can rule out the fuel system by shutting the engine off while decelerating, if the noise goes away then it’s fuel related. If it doesn’t then you know it’s something else.


I cut power with the ignition when decelerating with the throttle closed down a hill about 2000 RPM in 3rd gear. No change in sound at all. Still making a hideous racket, its super loud at that RPM. Push in the clutch, and it still makes the noise, just not as loud, and it winds down with engine rpm until the engine stops turning (remember fuel is cut with ignition).

The best way I can describe it is a loud bearing growl coming from the flywheel/clutch area. Makes the sound in neutral when free revving the motor at idle, on up through 2000 rpm, clutch in or out. At idle, put it in gear, let clutch out slightly, growl goes away as soon as clutch begins engaging.

1800 RPM, clutch out, 4th gear, cruising at constant speed or decelerating its growling as loud as can be. Put under any acceleration, light or heavy, the noise goes away immediately and everything is quiet and smooth.

After driving it this morning, and cutting the fuel to see if that changed anything, I took it back to the shop where I picked it up yesterday. I told the manager lets go for a ride. He immediately recognized the sound I describe as "terrible" and I drove it around a bit and made sure he had the opportunity to hear everything.

Pull back into the parking lot, and he starts ******** and moaning at me. "Well i'm not sure i'm gonna pull the transmission again" "I've already lost so much money on this job" "you gotta understand where i'm coming from" I reminded him that the first time was his **** up, I had nothing to do with that.

He incorrectly told me the first time, that the flywheel had "already been converted". He's also now saying they won't warranty the job because I bought the parts. I mentioned that he agreed the LUK kit would fit when I read the part number. It also does happen to be the correct kit, verified by LUK's website, and other retailers. I initially discussed just having the shop order the kit (the difference was $80 vs if he ordered it or if I ordered it off Rock Auto, and he encouraged me to order it and save the money).

There are several reasons for me to believe that it is very possible the kit was not installed correctly.

#1 - They shredded the packaging the first time they did this job and aborted installing the kit, and the parts I got back in the LUK kit were disorganized. I did not count the number of bolts. I also did not move the parts at all from where they placed them in the cab of my truck, if parts were lost, not my fault. If they lost some bolts, if they lost the instructions, I would not know. The LUK parts are of a very different design than stock. I imagine the bolts might be longer or shorter.

2 - Possibility of putting in the friction plate backwards. From a cursory look at it when it sat in my truck after they opened the packaging, it seemed to look the same on both sides. LUK stamps "flywheel side" or "transmission side" on the friction plate hub in small letters.

3 - Possibility they did not torque the flywheel bolts or the pressure plate bolts correctly.

4 - General incompetence. I brought the truck in for a flywheel replacement. I showed the manager the noise it was making, and he agreed it likely a worn DMF. When the truck was apart, the same manager told me it had already been converted to SMF "long ago" and just needed a new clutch and pilot bearing. When I got it back, It was clattering like a choo choo train and a pull of the inspection cover revealed a dual mass flywheel with a ton of play in it. The 2nd time around, I am handed back a truck that sounds terrible yet the mechanic who did the work says he did not notice any unusual noises.

Right now the truck is at their shop, and I tentatively agreed to have them pull the transmission, if the kit was installed incorrectly then they will cover the labor. If there is a defective part, then parts and labor is on me. I think that is fair, but there is now an issue of trust.

Let me know what y'all think. I agree with those who say that I need some injector work. However I believe that has been ruled out by cutting the fuel. No change at all in the loud deceleration growl.

Right now I am thinking I just cut my losses and get the truck back from these guys. I paid them $700, brought them the proper kit from a reputable company, which they agreed would fit, they kept my truck for 3 weeks and it is now un-drivable. I can fix the injectors over the holidays (I do not believe this is causing the growl) and take it to another transmission shop in a few weeks.
 
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Thewespaul

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Yep if you cut the fuel and the sound persists it’s not the fuel related. I think you’re at the point where it’s the last chance with the shop, they may make it right. Maybe check the trans fluid to make sure it’s not way overfilled with gear oil. I’ve seen all kinds of crazy stuff put in the zfs, but they take atf. However it’s more than likely something has been changed recently, and that would be the clutch...
 

laserjock

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Edit: check the inspection cover. It just occurred to me that could be the whole problem.

I can tell you the disk definitely has writing on it to tell you which side to put to the flywheel. That’s where my money is. I had mine on backwards when installing it getting ready to bolt the pressure plate up and it looked funny then I saw the writing. I knew it was there, I somehow got it flipped as I was stacking it on the alignment tool.

Make sure it’s not rubbing the inspection cover. I’ve heard guys say that’s happened before. It’s tight.

At this point it’s got to be on them. If they put the disk in backwards, id make them replace at a minimum the flywheel bolts(I think they will be rubbed) and the clutch disk. Thinking on it I’m not sure what will be rubbing. Could even be the springs in the disk rubbing something.
 
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