crazy talk (hydrogen injection)

[creighta]

I have run across several articles on this and wondered if anyone here has experimented with it yet.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster.html

I found a company in "farm show" that sells something like this

opinions?

 

[Agnem]

I didn't read it very much, but I saw the word Octane a few times, which tells me the discussion relates to gasoline powered only.

 

[77f250diesel]

They do state that they work better with diesel.
I had a short exchange with an Aussie from another site that built his own and was getting 15-20 % better mileage. He had nothing to gain by lying so it's one more item on my to-do list after I finish the pop tester and injector line heaters.

Dennis

 

[tonkadoctor]

Researching this quite a bit today.

What I find is it works quite well in diesel engines. Hydrogen has a much higher self ignition temperature of about 585*C vs diesels 250*C and still requires diesel or Bio diesel to get the burn started.

IIRC from a DOE sheet I was reading, (and can't find now because I forgot to bookmark it), a diesel can operate on as little as 1-10% diesel with the rest being hydrogen.

I think something similar to propane injection would work well to inject it into the intake on a small scale. It doesn't take much to split H2O into pure H2 and O2 and separate the 2 with simple electrolysis which could be done with solar power or the vehicles charging system. Video

I'm tempted to try it on a small scale in one of the briggs gas engines I have laying around.

One thing to remember before going all out, is that it takes energy to make energy so don't forget to add that cost into an experiment to find out if you are really saving anything... Like those that claim better fuel economy injecting propane..... Sure you get better economy with the diesel portion of the fuel and always forget to mention how much propane they use per mile and what it costs too. OOPS.

 

[RLDSL]

It's not hard to make hydrogen gas, what's hard is containing and handling it safely. That stuff has a kick to it.

When we were kids, me and a buddy figured out how to make the stuff and bought one of those 10 ft weather balloons out of the back of a comic book, and we had ourselves a mini Hindenburg about 100 ft up one night

After seeing how violently that stuff burned, we got REAL careful with it
Nothing like a couple of ten year old jr pyromaniacs
I can just see a couple of kids trying to go into a store and buy the makings for that and homemade fuse cord these days

---------Robert

 

[Shadetreemechanic]

Just keep in mind that any efficiency you gain is purely because you get more complete combustion with hydrogen gas versus liquid diesel. It takes exactly the same amount of energy to create the hydrogen (expressed as alternator drag) as you get from burning it. I saw one of these setups that was drawing 40 amps continuous when it was running.

 

[creighta]

I talked to a guy several months ago, in person, who claimed to have done this effectively. He was a nut job so I wrote it off untill this weekend when I found the article in a magazine for a company that sells this same basic thing for OTR trucks.

I realize alt. lag can be a problem, but if your overall cost per mile is reduced it is still beneficial. . . I am not trying to say this will work, but it seems reasonable.

anyone have suggestions on the best way to inject this into the system on the idi?

 

[Shadetreemechanic]

The problem that most of "efficiency upgrades" have is that you want them to work. So as soon as you put them on you change your driving habits (mostly unconciously) so that you can maximise the affect. You can get a 10-15% mileage upgrade from habits alone. I have seen no real tests that find them effective at all. From a physics standpoint there is technically an energy loss as your alternator is not 100% efficient and there is friction of making the engine turn.
But gasses do combust more fully than liquids, so there may be some gain from that especially if your injectors are not atomizing the fuel as they should.

 

[subway]

i could see how that could add to the efficiency of the engine. yes you will loose energy from the alternator feeding energy to make hydrogen but can you gain that back in efficiency?

it takes energy to feed a turbo but you by far come out ahead.....i would like to see it happen and hear some results from someone i know. i would love to tinker with it myself if i could find the time.

 

[Shadetreemechanic]

There are some of us on another forum that have been talking about this for awhile. Chemically, the electrolosis breaks a bond between hydrogen and oxogen (water) to give you hydrogen gas. "Burning" of hydrogen gas is nothing more than bonding hydrogen with oxygen to make water, a process that gives off alot of energy. The second law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed and consequently that the energy needed to make the hydrogen is EXACTLY the same as the energy created by burning it. Except that you lose ground due to the inefficiencies of the alternator and motor.
The idea that some efficiency is regained by burning a gas over a liquid is pure SWAG on my part. Many people are claiming improvement and thats the only place (outside of driving habits) that I can see it coming from.

 

[JwS]

Has anyone here ever failed the emissions test for being too clean?
I have heard of people who tried to pump extra air into their exhaust to "dilute" it and pass, which apparently doesn't work (probably in part because people desperate enough to do that have a car that is running so poorly that it still fails). But I think if it is too clean you will still pass.
Jay

 

[RLDSL]

Anyone happen to notice that the kits the guy is selling all include bottles upon bottles of friction modifiers for all the gearboxes etc on the vehicle?
Heck, you can get 4% increase in fuel mileage on a lot of vehicles just by dropping synthetic gear oil in the rear end. I wonder how much that has to do with his claims.

And the prices, sheesh. It always amazes me how the guys who are preaching the loudest about how important it is to help the environment, and how greedy the oil companies are, are always operating in the 500-1000% profit range on the stuff they're trying to sell. Maybe they'd do a better job of proving their point if they weren't all trying to get rich off each sale., Yes, I know, there's info there on how to make them....just enough to get the average person started and stumble and give up and blow the cash on a working unit.

That said, some fuel saving ideas are possible, I've made a few homegrown things for gas burners that were pretty impressive for fuel savings, so I know some of these things are possible. It would just be nice to see some of this stuff operating in financial reality.

 

[tonkadoctor]

Anyone happen to notice that the kits the guy is selling all include bottles upon bottles of friction modifiers for all the gearboxes etc on the vehicle?

Yep I spotted that last night.... And they want you to use KOH (Potassium Hydroxide) in the system too which is a tip off to a BS hydrogen system from somebody who really doesn't know what they are doing.

 

[Shadetreemechanic]

That said, some fuel saving ideas are possible, I've made a few homegrown things for gas burners that were pretty impressive for fuel savings, so I know some of these things are possible. It would just be nice to see some of this stuff operating in financial reality.

When I was in high school I spliced in to the PCV line of my 454 and injected extra fuel at a very small amount. The idea was that you would have complete atomization and could lean out the idle mixture to compensate. It worked, I had do get new springs for my idle screws so they didn't fall out. Worked pretty well until you stepped on the pedal. On the highway I went from 12 mpg to 13.5, but if I wasn't on the interstate it didn't do much.

 

[RLDSL]

When I was in high school I spliced in to the PCV line of my 454 and injected extra fuel at a very small amount. The idea was that you would have complete atomization and could lean out the idle mixture to compensate. It worked, I had do get new springs for my idle screws so they didn't fall out. Worked pretty well until you stepped on the pedal. On the highway I went from 12 mpg to 13.5, but if I wasn't on the interstate it didn't do much.

I did a similar setup on a chevy conversion van about 15 years ago ( loaded down with all the comfy furniture )with a hopped up 350, but on top of the little fuel goodie, I got a series of spacers and 3/8" aluminum plate and I drilled enough 1/2" holes in the plates to equal the area of teh openings in the AFB carb on it, then installed the plated with the holes offset to where the fuel air mixture wold have to really mix up good and get nice and hot before entering the manifold, and I was able to put way smaller jets and rods in the thing . Results were going from a max of 12 mpg to, 23-26 mpg, with way more power than before, and I didn't drive it easy. Had to let it warm up good or it would stall leaving the driveway. Just for fun, I pulled the plate setup off and the thing wouldn't even run without changing the jets and rods way richer.

So, I know it is possible to do some of these things, it's just the some of the stuff that's being sold sets off my BS detector .

----Robert