Coolant Mixing

[Goofyexponent]

I posted this in the 6.0 Powerstroke forum, but I need answers to this and FAST! I second posted it here to gain some more opinions.

Mods, if you think it needs to be deleted, do so but please make sure you tell me so I can print off the posts to save please!!!

What are your thoughts on mixing coolants in an engine that has an EGR/oil cooler with smaller ports.

I understand this is instant death for the EGR and oil coolers as it can cause silicate drop out. This plugs the coolers and causes them to burst.

I am mainly concerned with what would happen is a NON silicate coolant is topped up with a SILICATE coolant.

Example being a dump truck loosing coolant (Shell Rotella ELC which is NON SILICATE) and the dealer is dumping RECOCHEM silicate based coolant in on top of it.....upto 6 gallons in a year.

I have spec sheets on BOTH coolants, they BOTH say not to intermix with other brands.

I want your opinions.

 

[Brimmstone]

Flush it NOW. They will interact and turn to a slime that is almost impossible to flush out. I have dealt with this several times on our buses.

 

[Dieselcrawler]

yep. get it out and flush. but could be to late now....

 

[Goofyexponent]

Well, this is the kicker...the local international dealership has been doing this to about 100 trucks since 2007..we got the proof we need....time to get a lawyer!

 

[Dieselcrawler]

yea, if it ruined anytrhing they are now liable, IF it was labled what coolant is in it. everything we have at work has a decal on it saying it has FLEET CHARGE coolant in it. if anything else goes in it will sludge up. IH dealer knows we use fleetcharge now and will refill ours withit.

 

[Goofyexponent]

There is most CERTAINLY a HUGE sticker that says "FACTORY FILLED WITH SHELL ROTELLA ELC"

This is awsome news!!! I wonder why they would do something so stuid like sell the wrong coolant outright!!

 

[Brimmstone]

So they can get more work. They'll say you didn't keep up the maintenance program on the trucks therefore they can void out the warranty when the engine has to come apart.

 

[George D.]

it doesn't matter if they don't mix it coolant with silackits kill egr coolers

 

[ford390gashog]

Post the product sheet for the coolant they used. That company makes so many types without the spec sheet its hard to give a good answer.

 

[Goofyexponent]

This is the spec sheet for Recochem Turbo Power HD diesel EXL coolant that the IH dealer is selling..


Diesel Extended Life 50/50 Premix Antifreeze/Coolant

Diesel Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant is a hybrid technology product that does not require an initial charge of SCA or coolant extender at initial fill. This OEM approved product is specially formulated to protect all coolant system metals and provides excellent wet sleeve liner cavitation protection. It is designed for use in light and heavy duty diesel applications where an extended service interval is required. It is recommended for use in on-road truck, off-road, farm, marine and stationary applications including, but not limited to, Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel/MTU, GM Heavy Truck, Freightliner, PACCAR and Volvo Mack.
This aluminum compatible product, when added as an initial fill and properly maintained in accordance with engine manufacturer’s maintenance recommendation, will provide an in-service life of up to 960,000 km, 12,000 hours or 6 years, or whichever comes first.
Turbo Power® Diesel Extended Life engine coolant offers the following advantages:
• OEM approved
• Fully formulated; DOES NOT require initial charge of SCA
• Provides excellent liner cavitation protection
• Protects coolant system metals such as brass, copper, solder, steel, cast iron and aluminum
• Low silicate, phosphate and amine free
• Extended service life
• Premixed – DO NOT ADD WATER
This engine coolant meets the performance requirements of the following coolant specifications:
• ASTM D3306, D4656, D5345, D6210
• TMC RP329
• CAT EC-1
• CID-A-A-52624
• Japanese Standard JIS K2234
• Detroit Diesel 7SE298, 93K217
• MTU MTL 5048
• Cummins



For more information on TURBO POWER® Engine Coolants for your application contact your Recochem representative.
Container Size Units Carton Size Gross
Item # Size UPC H (cm) L (cm) W (cm) /Case H (cm) L (cm) W (cm) Weight SCC14
16-834 3.78 L 056438168348 28.70 18.80 11.50 4 30.00 38.00 23.70 17.50 40056438168346
16-835 9.46 L 056438168355 35.90 23.80 17.40 2 36.80 33.80 23.70 24.12 50056438168350
26-839 205 L 056438268390 – – – 1 – – – 240.00 –
26-838-1000 1000 L – – – – 1 – – – 1150.00 –
26-839-1435 1435 L – – – – 1 – – – 1500.00 –
Typical Product Properties
Characteristic Performance Test Method
pH 7.5 – 8.6 ASTM D1287
Specific gravityb 1.075 – 1.090 ASTM D1122
Freeze point, °C/°F -37/-34 ASTM D1177
Foam volume, ml 150 max. ASTM D1881
Foam break time, second 5 max. ASTM D1881
Reserve Alkalinity, ml 3.0 min. ASTM D1121
Chloride, ppm 25 max. ASTM D3634
Silicon, ppm 125 max. ASTM D6130
Color Red
Glycol Content (wgt.%) 47 min.
Inhibitors and Water Content (wgt.%) 53 max.
b Measured at 15.6ºC/60ºF





Typical Coolant Performance Testing Results
Metal Type ASTM D 1384 GLASSWARE CORROSION ASTM D 2570 SIMULATED SERVICE
Test Results¹ Max. Spec. Test Results¹ Max. Spec.
Copper 2 10 8 20
Solder 4 30 4 60
Brass 1 10 7 20
Steel 0 10 1 20
Cast Iron -1 10 9 20
Aluminum 0 30 0 60
¹ Weight loss, except negative sign which indicate weight gain, per coupon in milligrams. Values are for coolant made from ****** ethylene glycol.
Test Results¹ Specification
ASTM D4340 Heat Rejecting Aluminum Corrosion (mg/cm²/week) 0.2 1.0 maximum
ASTM D2809 Aluminum Water Pump Cavitation- Erosion Corrosion Rating 8 8 minimum
¹ Weight loss per coupon in milligrams (average for 2 tests). Values are for coolant made from ****** ethylene glycol.
NOTICE: This product is shipped in compliance with applicable laws and regulations regarding classification, packaging, shipping and handling. The performance and physical property data described for this product are typical results not sale specifications, except where maximum or minimum is indicated. Refer to Material Safety Data Sheets for further information.
Because use conditions and applicable laws may differ from one location to another and may change with time, the customer is responsible for determining whether product and the information in this document are appropriate for their use and for ensuring that their workplace and disposal practices are in compliance with applicable laws and other governmental enactments. Recochem’s warranty is limited to the claims of product meeting stated performance specifications. It is the responsibility of the end-user to determine product suitability as recommended in the owner’s manual and to follow engine manufacturer’s instructions.

 

[Goofyexponent]

This is also attached to Recochem's website....

Automotive Liquids

Is Universal Antifreeze/Coolant aluminum compatible?
Yes, Universal Antifreeze/Coolant is fully aluminum compatible
.
How should I cleanup engine coolant that has spilled or leaked out of my vehicle?
Either dilute a small spill with a large amount of water, or absorb the spill with a small amount of absorbent material (i.e. kitty litter). Dispose of the absorbent material in regular garbage.

I have a mixed fleet of diesel and regular automotive vehicles. Can I use your Turbo Power Diesel Antifreeze/Coolant in regular fuel applications?
No. Recochem’s Turbo Power coolants are specially formulated to meet various engine requirements. We do not recommend using diesel engine coolants in regular vehicles because all of our coolants meet different performance specifications. Our Turbo Power Diesel Antifreeze/Coolant 16-284 is made for all types of heavy-duty car and truck diesel engines. For cars and light duty trucks, use the Turbo Power Universal Antifreeze/Coolant 16-244.

What is an OAT coolant? Do you manufacture any?
Yes, our Organic Acid Technology (OAT) engine coolant is Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant. It is an engine coolant that is based on fully neutralized organic acid corrosion inhibitors. These corrosion inhibitors last longer than traditional corrosion inhibitors, and this is why OAT coolants are typically long life products. These coolants do not contain phosphates, borates, silicates, etc.

Why is it not recommended to mix Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant with traditional coolant?
There are two basic issues here:
Incompatibility between coolants – chemical instability where the corrosion inhibitors fall out of the coolant.
Performance issues – the performance of the combined mixture is only as good as the weakest link.
Why can’t I use straight coolant instead of diluting it? Will not more coolant give me better protection?

Because it will freeze. The freeze point of undiluted coolant will only be -13ºC, and therefore you could have freeze point problems in the wintertime. Too much corrosion inhibitor could lead to inhibitor fallout, especially in those cases where SCAs (supplemental coolant additive) are added. Physical properties of pure coolant are not the same as premixed coolant.

Why do the directions state that distilled, deionized, or soft water should be used to blend coolant?
Some coolants are sensitive to hard water, which can cause some corrosion inhibitors to form insoluble salts in the water. The result is premature coolant failure. Hard water salts will deposit on hot areas within the coolant system creating insulating films, which contribute to overheating problems in the coolant system.

What is the recommended dilution ratio of your coolant products and what is the protection level I can expect?
Each product label has the following information for dilution ratio and protection level:
50% antifreeze (50% water) 60% antifreeze (40% water) 70% antifreeze (30% water)
Protection against freezing (°C) -37°C -52°C -64°C
Protection against boil-over (°C) ** 129°C 132°C 136°C
**with a 100 kilopascal (15 psi) radiator cap in good condition

When should I replace my coolant fluid?
In general, follow your OEM’s (Original Equipment Manufacturer) guidelines. If you do not have a guide and are using traditional coolant, then change every two years. Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant is every 5 years or 250,000 km. Extended Life Heavy Duty is 960,000 km, 12,000 hours, or 4 years, whichever comes first.
It is important to note that you should check a coolant system at least twice a year. If the coolant is dirty, cloudy, or full of particulate, then the coolant system should be drained, flushed, cleaned, and refilled with a prediluted good quality coolant. Also, the reason for the bad condition of the coolant should be determined.

Which Brake Fluid should I use in my vehicle?
For the correct selection for your vehicle, please refer to your owner’s manual for the manufacturer’s recommendation.

Can I mix DOT 3 Brake Fluid with DOT 4 Brake Fluid (or any combination)?
The mixing of fluids is not recommended with any product, and always check the label for further instructions.

When should I replace my Brake Fluid?
Please refer to your owner’s manual for maintenance schedules.

What dilution rate is required to provide freeze protection to -50°C and -45°C for product number 25-228?
A mixture of 45% concentrate to 55% water protects to -37°C. A mixture of 50% concentrate to 50% water protects to -40°C.

 

[Goofyexponent]

This is the spec sheet for Shell Rotella ELC..I have also attached the PDF file emailed to me directly from shell, it's the same thing posted below, but easier to read with charts and tables.

SHELL ROTELLA® ELC
EXTENDED LIFE COOLANT/ ANTIFREEZE

Premium Extended Life Coolant/Antifreeze

Product Description
Shell Rotella® ELC Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze is a “fill for life” ethylene glycol based coolant for heavy-duty diesel, gasoline and natural gas powered engines. Shell Rotella® ELC contains a unique extended life carboxylate inhibitor system and nitrite / molybdate as secondary Shell Rotella® ELC meets all the requirements of CAT EC-1, TMC RP 329 and RP 338. Shell Rotella® ELC is available as a concentrate and as 50/50 and 60/40 volume mixtures of Shell Rotella® ELC with deionized water.
Applications

Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze has been proven, with over 100 million miles of fleet testing, to provide complete protection of all cooling system components. The inhibitors in ROTELLA ELC, due to their special chemistry, are designed to go 600,000 miles on-road or 12,000 hours off-road with only one Shell Rotella ELC Extender addition at 300,000 miles or 6,000 hours. After 600,000 miles or 12,000 hours it is recommended that the coolant be tested for continued use.

Shell Rotella ELC’s patented inhibitors, while providing complete cooling system component protection, also help reduce water pump failures, hard water scale deposits, silicate “green goo” and improve heat transfer. Tests with ROTELLA ELC show that heat transfer is about 8% better with RELC than with conventional heavy duty, silicate-containing coolants.

Maintenance is simple with ROTELLA ELC. To use this product just follow your OEM’s instructions on how to drain, flush and refill your cooling system. Top up only with Shell Rotella ELC Pre-diluted 50/50 or an equivalent brand of ELC like Fleetrite® ELC. At every PM, or at least twice per year, check the color and freeze point of your coolant. If coolant is red, has no deposits and has a freeze point of between –15ºF and –60ºF then the coolant is considered in suitable condition for further use. See index for freeze point adjustment chart. Please note that dilution of Shell Rotella ELC by more than 15% with non-equivalent coolants or water is not recommended. Over-dilution will require initiating SCA use or draining and refilling the cooling system with Shell Rotella ELC. If contamination with non-equivalent /non-extended life coolants is suspected, it is recommended the ELC Contamination Test Strip Kit be used to confirm satisfactory carboxylate inhibitor content.

Features and Benefits
• minimum coolant life of 600,000 miles with only one Shell Rotella ELC Extender addition at 300,000 miles.
• no regular Supplemental Coolant Additives (SCA’s) required
• improved water pump seal life due to low dissolved solid levels
• excellent pitting protection for wet sleeve cylinder liners
• excellent, long-term corrosion protection of all cooling system metals including aluminum, brass, cast iron, steel, solder, and copper.
• excellent heat transfer
• reduced hard water scale
• reduced overall coolant and cooling component maintenance
• no silicate dropout or gel formation during use or storage
• compatible with conventional coolants. Dilution/mixing with non-equivalent coolants will reduce or eliminated extended life properties. DO NOT DILUTE THIS PRODUCT BY MORE THAN 15% WITH CONVENTIONAL COOLANTS or water.
• can be used for top-up of cooling systems containing conventional coolants. When Shell Rotella ELC is used as top-up for conventional coolants SCA’s must still be added.

Approvals and Recommendations
Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze meets or exceeds:
• ASTM D 3306 for automotive service
• ASTM D 4985 for heavy duty diesel service
• ASTM D 6210
• TMC RP 329
• TMC RP 338

Shell Rotella ELC Pre-diluted 50/50 Extended Life Coolant meets or exceeds:
• ASTM D 4656 for automotive service
• ASTM D 5345 for heavy duty diesel service
• ASTM D 6210
• TMC RP 329
• TMC RP 338

Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Coolant System meets the extended life requirements and chemical requirements of:
• Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, International, Mack and Volvo
• Phosphate free requirement of European OEMs
• Silicate free requirement of Japanese OEMs
Typical Characteristics of Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze
Typical
Concentrate
Typical
50/50
Typical
60/40
Code No.
94041
94042
94065
Appearance
Red
Red
Red
Specific gravity 60/60 °F
1.130
1.06
1.07
Freezing point, °F (ASTM D 1177)
Diluted 50/50
As sold
As sold
-34°F
-34ºF
-62ºF
pH (ASTM D 1287), 1:2 dilution with water
Diluted 50/50
8.3
As sold
8.3
As sold
8.3
Reserve Alkalinity (ASTM D 1121), as received
6.0
As sold
3.0
As sold
3.5

Silicate, % (as Anhydrous Alkali Metasilicate)
None
None
None
For customers requiring bitterant in their coolant see table below for Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life
Coolant/Anti-Freeze with bitterant added.
Product Name
Product Code
Typical values
Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Coolant/ Anti-Freeze Extended Life Coolant with Bitterant
94060
See code number 94041 in table above
Shell Rotella ELC Pre-diluted 50/50 Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze Extended Life Coolant with Bitterant
94061
See code number 94042 in table above

Use of Shell Rotella ELC Extender is recommended to ensure maximum coolant life. This product replenishes nitrite levels and should be added at 300,000 miles or 6,000 hours of coolant service. Nitrite serves as secondary protection against liner cavitation. Most European engine OEM’s do not require nitrite when an extended life coolant like Rotella ELC is used.
Typrical Characteristics of Shell Rotella ELC Extender
Typical Values
Code number
94043
Nitrite level **
400 ppm
** Nitrite added when extender is used as per table below.
Rotella ELC Extender should be used in accordance with the following table.
Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze Extender dosage rate
Dosage of Shell ROTELLA ELC Extender at 300,000 miles of
on-road use (three years or 6,000 hours of off-road use).
Cooling System Capacity
ROTELLA ELC Extender
Gal.
(L)
Qty.
6-8
22-30
0.5 quarts
8-13
30-49
1 quarts
13-22
49-83
1.5 quarts
22-30
83-114
2 quarts

Shell Rotella ELC Extender should only be used with Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze. Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Extender should not be used at initial fill or for routine top up.

Handling and Safety Information
Shell Rotella ELC Extended Life Coolant/Anti-Freeze Extended Life Coolant has a shelf life of at least 8 years. Always dispose of used coolant in accordance with local, state and federal guidelines. These products are not to be used to protect the inside of potable water systems against freezing. For information on the safe handling and use of this product, refer to its Material Safety Data Sheet at http://www.equivashellmsds.com. For more information and availability, call 1+800-782-7852 or visit the World Wide Web: http://www.shell-lubricants.com/.

 

[ford390gashog]

Both of them are EC-1 rated I see zero issue in mixing them. Have you posted this yet on BITOG?

 

[Goofyexponent]

Both of them are EC-1 rated I see zero issue in mixing them. Have you posted this yet on BITOG?

BITOG? lol

See this is the issue. People see that EC-1 or Cat ELC compatable and think it's fine to mix.

Yes, both coolants are EC-1 rated...yes, BUT BOTH coolant manufactures say not to mix.

Hell, recochem says it's Cat ELC compatable....but Cat's coolant is a NON SILICATE too.

Cat says not to mix.

Navistar says not to mix.

And all local dealerships but ours and even all mechanics I walk to say NOT to combine the two.

The way I see it is if a manufacture says NOT to do something with their product, I am not going to do it!

 

[CDX825]

BITOG= Bob Is The Oil Guy forums. They have a dedicated coolant section. It would be a good place to ask about this situation as well.

To me a coolant with silicates shouldn't be listed as EC-1 rated. Seems like a possible typo on their part. They also mention diesel coolant can't be used in gasoline engines. That's wrong!