lets talk "pinky steering" mod

[FORDF250HDXLT]

ok i recall LCAM talking about a mod that modifies the latter 8th and 9th gen trucks back to that old school 7th gen pinky steering like the old 86 i had many moons ago.one of the kick ass features i loved about that old 7th gen (or bull nose,if you prefer) was it's pinky steering.now with my latest hydroboost brake pedal drastically altering how the whole truck just feels so much superior in driver comfort and class,im reminded of this mod of pinky steering for the 9th gen.

iirc it was replacing this part as shown in someones hydoboost convert.you simply change this out for one in an older car or something.is this right?

You must be registered for see images attach

if so,is this ok for my red head steering box,hydroboost unit,and potentially latter on (im having a hard time paying the $) a hydraulic winch.it would be an upgrade/good thing for all the above correct?

there has been talk in the past about the older siginaw pumps converted into the newer trucks as a way to get the increased pinky steering,but so far iv never seen an actual write up for a 9th gen idi truck,and not sure if all that work and fabrication is really needed?

screw road feel.give me the driving the living room couch feel any day.

opinions?

 

[icanfixall]

I too am interested in this modification. What I recall is this part in found in the big ford cars like the lincolns and mercs. but not sure if there was a spring as part of this..

 

[gonecrazyi]

My old 80 f100 would steer with one finger. I loved the way that rotted out old thing drove. But my w350 with the Saginaw pump and 38s drove the same way till the alignment got a little out.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

The part you have shown in this picture is what you drill out to get more flow out of the system. To get more pressure you replace the spring that is behind the valve that is behind the fitting pictured above. Often when that fitting is removed the valve will try to jump out cause the spring is pushing on it from the back.

Supposedly rack-and-pinion cars run higher line pressures, so you can rob the fitting and valve and spring as a matched set from one of those. Mustang, Mark VII, Continental - if it has a 5.0/302 and rack-and-pinion it will have the parts you need. I used the spring and valve from one of those and drilled my fitting slightly, not a whole lot of improvement. Well, it was better than before, but still not pinky steering. Maybe drilling the fitting was a mistake, I don't know. I was about to try a non-modified fitting again with the rack-and-pinion valve and spring, but on a road trip in the middle of the night and in the middle of nowhere my stupid teflon o-ring started leaking so I had to reef on the line nut so hard that the threads start deforming - it stopped my leak but also rendered the pressure line unusable should it be separated from the pump fitting. Because I'm a cheap basterd I never bothered replacing the line, I was swapping in a Saginaw pump eventually so there was just no point in messing with something temporary that worked good enough as is.

Now I have the Saginaw pump, and it still feels the same - still no pinky steering. My pump came out of a low mileage Lincoln luxobarge, and I took it completely apart and replaced all seals prior to installing it. Additionally the piston has all the shims removed from the relief valve, thus giving it the max line pressure she's capable of, around 1450psi supposedly. So I know it's not a problem with my pump, at least it shouldn't be.

At this point I have temporarily given up on my pinky-steering quest. I'm on the look out for a high-pressure high-flow Saginaw pump out of a Kodiak MDT, but I'm yet to see one in the small body that our trucks use - it exists, I just haven't found one yet. For those of ya'll running the Ford C2 pump, I'd suggest that you hit the junkyard and rob an '80-'86 IDI out of its fitting and valve and spring as matched set. Make sure it's not a rebuilt pump you're taking apart, as those are all over the board as far as what goes inside them. Bad news for '89 and newer hydroboost users, your current pressure line between pump and hydro won't work, you'll need one for a '87 F-Superduty. IMHO those are better setups anyways, as they have no stupid teflon o-ring.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

bummer.i has hoping you had it all worked out LCAM.that's why i asked over here.dang lol.
well ok,so looking here:


Pump reservoir: The Saginaw self-contained pump was offered with way too many hose-return-fitting configurations. The hose-return fitting varied completely by original vehicle application. Some reservoirs had returns running up, back, left, right, forward—well you get the idea. The Saginaw pump reservoirs were even offered with two return fittings for vehicles with a Hydro-Boost brake system.

Perfect Power Steering Saginaw Pumps
2 3 Saginaw pumps are not...

read full caption
Pump flow/valve rating: This is another aspect of the pump that varied completely by original application. The OEMs would specify what flow rating was required based on vehicle weight, steering gear piston diameter, and whether or not the pump was running a Hydro-Boost brake system. The Saginaw pump in OEM applications can be set from 2.0 on up to 4.5 gpm.

Pump bypass pressure: Just like the flow rating above, the OEMs would specify output pressure based on the original vehicle application and what system the pump was running. Most steering gear applications would run between 1,100-1,300 psi with heavy vehicle high-demand applications on up to 1,550-1,600 psi. Rack-and-pinion steering, on the other hand, is generally happier at a lower operating pressure of 850-950 psi.

Excessive response/touchy steering: This is generally caused by excessive pump pressure, Borgeson offers a pressure reduction kit (part number 899001) that will allow the customer to adjust the internal bypass pressure of the P/S pump (self-contained and Type II with a remote

Read more: http://www.customclassictrucks.com/...ect_power_steering/viewall.html#ixzz2W0ewYXlB


so where could we get a new (if we didn't mind setting a $200 budget to get pinky steering) pump that would meet the "high demand" 1600 psi he speaks of?

AGR?
http://www.agrperformance.com/Pumps-AGR-Performance-MB-Motorsports.htm

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/agr-809156/overview/make/ford

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/agr-877257/overview/make/ford

.......
so actually now in light of this,when you say you replaced the spring and then you also drilled the fitting out and that maybe that was your mistake.that sounds right i guess then doesn't it,because by drilling the fitting out,you increased flow/gpm but it likely dropped your pressure by doing that right?
but then you swapped pumps anyway,do you suppose your replacement saginaw pump is just worn out? or any other suspicions as to why it didn't drive line pressure up resulting in easier steering?

i haven't been behind the wheel of a 7th gen f-series in great deal many years now,but i'll never forget their super easier steering back in the 80's.i had a 2wd half ton 300-6 and my old man had a 250 4wd w/351 and either truck steered just a light as a feather.
this 9th gen's getting that.always wanted to make it happen but the truck always needed more important things lol.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

The "heavy vehicle high-demand applications" is the MDT application. Chevy Kodiak, GMC Topkick, F600. Not all, but some of the smaller GVWs with an in-house engine (or 5.9 Cummins) will have that pump. High GVW applications (those bordering the CDL threshold and obviously those above it) will have either the large-body Saginaw pump, or whatever goes with the industrial diesel they happen to be equipped with. Unfortunately the only way to tell if the pump actually is the high-pressure high-flow kind is to remove the reservoir and look at the cap on the back of the pump itself - concave (dented inwards) cap is regular pump, convex (bumped outwards) cap is a sign of the wider rotor behind it. IIRC tjere was some info floating on Pirate that some of the 10-11k GVW GM 1-tons also had that pump, but parts stores list the regular kind for those application so if the pump has ever been replaced chances are the good pump is now gone and there's just a regular one in its place.

I believe you are correct on the fitting mod - I don't recall what I was after by drilling it, and it's just a marginal increase in bore size, however at idle it may just be enough to screw things up. And it is only at idle that I find steering assist somewhat lacking, when I get the RPMs in the 900 range it's enough to wake up the pump and get the steering to lighten up. For that reason when I drive I'm usually idling at this higher engine speed, only dropping do low idle if I'm going to be idling stationary for whatever reason (traffic jam, running the OBA, etc). A smaller pump pulley (also known as an "overdrive" pulley) would achieve the same effect, and with our low-revvin engines it shouldn't be much of a long-term durability concern either - pretty sure the GM pulleys have the wrong offset to line up with the IDI belts, and since Saginaw pumps were only used in select Ford vehicles I find availability of matching overdrive pulleys somewhat lacking...

My Saginaw pump had no signs of internal wear at all. It came out of a low-mileage 6000 lbs hydroboosted car, I figured that's a better match than one from a van that's the same wright but w/o hydroboost. Its vanes are actually thicker than the E-series pump vanes, same number and width just thicker plates. But then I also swapped the relief valve and fitting to the E-series so I can run off-the shelf pressure line (for a GM truck). Don't recall if I drilled that fitting either, don't think I did but it's all pretty fuzzy at this point. Suppose one of these days I should just pull the valve and fitting of a 10k GVW hydroboosted GM truck and swap it in and see how that works, GMs in my experience generally have more pinky steer than same-year Fords. Which is pretty much what I suggested to C2 pump users - swap in the known pinky-steer valve and fitting (and spring) setup and see where that gets you.

About the rack and pinion setups liking less pressure, idk - at the time I had access to numerous C2 pumps, and every single one that was from a recirculating-ball steering box system had the spring shorter than the IIRC two rack-and-pinion pumps. Springs felt equally strong, thus the longer spring when compressed to fit in the same space will produce higher force on the valve resulting in higher line pressure... Who knows, like I said there wasn't a night and day difference.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

ok i think i found your issue here then.it appears as if our hydroboost units will be a bottleneck for adding on a higher pressure ps pump and looks like there's places to fix the issue,but the price seems impractical.
http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15837

so with this info known then,im guessing the 7th gen/bull nose diesel trucks don't use the same ps pumps as the gas trucks and don't have the feather steering? cus if they did,then those 7th gen owners who swapped to hydro would have issue of failed ps pumps all the time,and we're not seeing reports of that on the forums.

this isn't looking promising.im not going to spend several hundred to get light and easy steering.a couple yeah sure,but not several.dang it.9th gen steering isn't anywhere firm enough to justify spending that kind of $.

however! this doesn't effect most viewers of this thread who are running (and plan to keep) the oem vacuum brake systems on their truck.no big downers for most.just us hydro guys.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

You are misunderstanding the situation. The hydroboost only becomes a restriction when running a high-flow pump. Higher pressure in and of itself does not damage the pump, the problem occurs when the pump is cranking out more GPM than the the relief can flow when the hydroboost restricts the pass-thru passage while you're on the brakes. Basically the pump deadheads hardcore. What Vanco PBS does is modify the hydroboost so that even when brakes are applied plenty fluid can still flow thru the hydro to reach the steering box and the ram assist. At least that is what I remember from their tech guy's explanations on Pirate.

How that does (not) affect you or me - we don't run steering rams, just stock steering boxes, thus we do not need high-flow pumps to keep said rams operating properly while we're also applying the brakes. I'm after the small MDT pump only cause it runs higher pressure, the flow increase itself is not all that great so I doubt I'll have issues with it. This is actually the reason I don't run the large MDT pump (of which I've found several so far), way too much flow for my needs. Point is, higher line pressure should be fine for the pump as long as you don't mess with the flow much. Of which I have no intentions, and neither should you.

Also, the bullnose IDI trucks most definitely DO have feather-light steering. The crappy "road feel" one we're enjoying came about with the bricks, or about the same time as the C2 pressure line hookup fitting got redesigned. Coincidence? That I do not know.

As for the cost of the porting, $150 port job on a new unit ain't bad at all. You gotta realize they need to disassemble it to do the machine work, then put it back together. I tore down my old unit to replace the input rod seals, took me like an hour and a half just for that. And I bet these guys are gutting them completely before machining, just so they can get them perfectly clean before reassembly. A hydroboost needs to be perfectly clean inside to operate properly. Which is why you'll never see me running a reman unit from a parts store - just ask Gatorman on here what he has to say on this subject. I'd much rather get a $50 junkayrd unit, then ship it out to Vanco for full rebuild and likely porting - I'll end up with a $400 unit that has been modified for my needs by professionals who know how to get the job done right. Compare that to the $200 reman performed for all you know in a bathroom in a truck stop in Mexico. Or to what a new unmodified Motorcraft unit will run you without a deal on RockAuto or something. So no, the cost is not prohibitive at all considering what you're getting in return.

But this is getting somewhat offtopic. Back on the original subject, no I don't think we'll have any problems running the bullnose pressure regulator setups together with our hydroboost setups. I can obviously no longer try it, but you still can.

 

[riotwarrior]

GReat discussion here.

I've heard of porting a hydroboost so now I can look into it for me. I've got two so why now send one off for a port job so I can as I plan run RAM assist from a ported box.

I'm sending a box in to Red Head after I port it. It will be fully disassembled and ported and fitted, prior to shipping so they can just take my parts and rebuild the box. THEY DON"T PORT but will build your ported box!

Thus I can forward build for ram later.

Thanks guys for all the links and info I've got lots to read in week or so. FOR NOW

SAR GSTL

this is a quick break from that

Al

 

[kc0stp]

IMHO theres such a thing as to easy to steer.... maybe its just the racer in me but I want a steering setup that requires a bit of force and provides feedback (theres a reason a lot of racecars have manual steering)

 

[LCAM-01XA]

I've heard of porting a hydroboost so now I can look into it for me. I've got two so why now send one off for a port job so I can as I plan run RAM assist from a ported box.

I'm sending a box in to Red Head after I port it. It will be fully disassembled and ported and fitted, prior to shipping so they can just take my parts and rebuild the box. THEY DON"T PORT but will build your ported box!

Just a heads-up Vanco will not just port a used hydroboost unit, if you want it ported they will also do a rebuild at the same time. Same reasons why RedHead will not port your box but will work on it if already ported.

IMHO theres such a thing as to easy to steer.... maybe its just the racer in me but I want a steering setup that requires a bit of force and provides feedback (theres a reason a lot of racecars have manual steering)

I agree, too easy can be dangerous at high speeds. But if you're mostly driving fairly slow, and spend lots of time just crawling around, the factory pinky steering feel would be just fine IMHO. Well ideally you want pinky steering at low speeds and more manual feel at higher speeds, and both Ford and GM have systems that do that - the mechanical parts are direct bolt-ons for C2 and Saginaw pumps, no idea on the electronics tho...

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

You are misunderstanding the situation. The hydroboost only becomes a restriction when running a high-flow pump. Higher pressure in and of itself does not damage the pump, the problem occurs when the pump is cranking out more GPM than the the relief can flow when the hydroboost restricts the pass-thru passage while you're on the brakes.

I don't think we'll have any problems running the bullnose pressure regulator setups together with our hydroboost setups. I can obviously no longer try it, but you still can.

freaking perfect.right,why mess with volume.all we want is higher pressure.
so all i need is that valve along with it's spring from any 7th gen f-series.bolt her in to my pump,and theoretically i should have the same exact pinky steer of those trucks.

now for the million dollar question............where the heck do i find one lol?
i'll hunt google but im guessing i'll need to place a want to buy thread in the marketplace again.

hauling heavy today (bed completely full of wood - 3 trips) and i can't possibly thank you guys who discovered the brake pedal issue out enough,but major thanks! loaded or not,the brake pedal is some nice.feels like normal easy braking again,only still super powerful.loving it.now to get the easy steering to match,and i'll really feel spoiled.

IMHO theres such a thing as to easy to steer.... maybe its just the racer in me but I want a steering setup that requires a bit of force and provides feedback (theres a reason a lot of racecars have manual steering)

i grew up on 70's full size cars where it felt just like sitting in the living room driving the couch.felt as if you just told the car what to do and it did it.majorly disconnected from vehicles now in ride,quality,and feel.
i had no troubles running them pigs well up over 100mph.there is no such thing as too easy steering to me.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

now for the million dollar question............where the heck do i find one lol?
i'll hunt google but im guessing i'll need to place a want to buy thread in the marketplace again.

This is something you shouldn't worry about too much, it will be taken care of for you soon enough Have a little patience!

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

pinky steering mod attempt #1 = fail.

This is something you shouldn't worry about too much, it will be taken care of for you soon enough Have a little patience!

thanx man.
so i installed the valve and spring you sent me from the 7th gen truck.keeping my large fitting with the dual o-rings as shown in the pic in the first post of this thread and changing just the valve and spring behind it.
it made no difference to the steering at all.i was hoping,but nothing at all.i left them in,as it didn't seem to hurt steering any either.
any more idea's?

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Did you think of measuring the dia of the orifice in the fitting you reused? Maybe it's different from the one from the slantnose... Other than that I'm out of ideas. Btw doesn't the slantnose fitting also have 2 o-rings on it? It should, in the exact same grooves as your factory one.

But if it's not the pump, then it must be the steering box. I know the parts stores tend to list the same box for everything Ford that is not a passenger car, but just cause it works doesn't mean it's as good as the factory made it. Maybe if you can look up OEM part # for a slantnose box and one for a brick or OBS, if they're different then that could be the cause for different steering feel.