WMO as engine oil

[Zaggnutt]

When those of you filtering the WMO are finished with the refining / filtering process can you then use this oil as engine lubricating oil as well as fuel?

 

[Brad S.]

That thought had crossed my mind when I had my tinfoil hat on.
My guess is a person could do this, BUT the chemical packages in most oil are gone by the time it gets to be wmo.
We'll see what everybody else is thinking.

 

[Zaggnutt]

That thought had crossed my mind when I had my tinfoil hat on.
My guess is a person could do this, BUT the chemical packages in most oil are gone by the time it gets to be wmo.
We'll see what everybody else is thinking.

I'm trying to weigh out expenses, labor, startup costs etc. I tried searching for it on the web and here but I couldn't find the right combination of words to get the results. I thought maybe I was asking a question with a "duh" answer...

So this is not being done?

 

[Zaggnutt]

Okay, so I just got off the phone with the owner of PABioDiesel. The business is nearby (we are both in Duncannon, PA) He said the filtering process will not and cannot remove any chemical additives that are added by the manufacturer. He said a refinery could process them out if they chose to but filters and centrifuges will not remove them....

I didn't go into detail with him because I know he is a busy man so it may be interesting for extra credit to ask your neighborhood chemist to see what it would take to remove them. At some point I would think the molecules would begin to break down. Everything changes.

 

[Brad S.]

All kidding aside, with the use of a CF, a person could get the oil pretty clean, maybe for use as lubrication back in the crankcase.
I have heard that sometimes oil only gets dirty....????
But wmo as fuel in a IDI, thats a different story.

 

[Zaggnutt]

All kidding aside, with the use of a CF, a person could get the oil pretty clean, maybe for use as lubrication back in the crankcase.
I have heard that sometimes oil only gets dirty....????
But wmo as fuel in a IDI, thats a different story.

Pretty much what he said. Basically that it's makeup doesn't change after it is used. The black color it gets is just the carbon sediment? being pulled from the engine. He said carbon something sediment but I missed what he said. Basically - metal dirt.

Based on how sensitive ips and injectors are I would think that WMO filtered really well for fuel would work in the engine? Perhaps another slow cycle through for safety's sake? I am a complete and utter noob at this stuff. I am just starting down this road so please forgive any glaring oversights on my part... I plan on having a fleet of diesels to run my business and I need a way to not only fuel them cheaply but I am in desperate need of ways to get out from under the thumb of this ridiculous government before they bankrupt everyone less than a millionaire.

 

[79jasper]

Well think of big rig with crankcase oil CF's. They go a long time before changing the oil.

I believe Javier has one on his truck. Not sure. Maybe just a bypass setup.

Also synthetic oil would be better.


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[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

I'm sure you "could" do it... but even after 20hrs through my centrifuge, the oil isn't NEARLY as clean as fresh from the bottle.. and typically you don't know what you are getting with wmo.. who knows if its had atf, gear oil, brake fluid, etc..etc.. dumped in it.

Another thing to consider is the acids that form in the oil from combustion gases.

Could it be done?.. I'm sure it could... but considering the cost of an oil change verses the cost of an engine.. not worth it IMO.. running it as a fuel has a much higher rate of return then reusing it in the crank case.

Again, just an opinion.
-Chris

 

[FarmerFrank]

Since you asked.... My 86 currently burns/leaks 1-2 quarts a day (mostly burns). I got tired of adding clean oil to it last week. I knew the WMO stock i have was pure old 15w-40 so I ran it threw my " refinery" and dumped it in the engine. Dirty oil will run it a lot longer than no oil.

Keep in mind this engine will only be in there a couple more months so I'm
Not overly concerned about it.

If it scatters I has been good to me and I have a fresh 7.3 and a turbo for it. - it will not get this.

When my bronco had a 300 I-6 (it's first engine) I use to dump used oil in it too because it used a quart every 30 miles.

 

[Josh Carmack]

Use a rope filter, perhaps buy a large large lighthouse wick, and filter it that way. A cotton rope filters on a molecular level, but it will still need additives for it to properly suspend carbon and metal particles. The acidity will also have to be lowered back to normal levels. Oil does not wear out, it only becomes acidic and dirty. Very soon I will start filtering used 15W40 for my old truck. It's starting to use excessive amounts of crankcase oil, and I intend to replace the engine with a transplant once it's done. If it came from a newer engine and you know it's origins there is no reason you can't. If your already using enough crank case oil to even consider using used oil in it, then its near shot anyway. My engine is using a gallon every 4 tanks of fuel, so once I obtain a known "good" "clean" source of oil from my neighbors tractos, then thats what it gets from now till it grenades.

 

[Zaggnutt]

Use a rope filter, perhaps buy a large large lighthouse wick, and filter it that way. A cotton rope filters on a molecular level, but it will still need additives for it to properly suspend carbon and metal particles. The acidity will also have to be lowered back to normal levels. Oil does not wear out, it only becomes acidic and dirty. Very soon I will start filtering used 15W40 for my old truck. It's starting to use excessive amounts of crankcase oil, and I intend to replace the engine with a transplant once it's done. If it came from a newer engine and you know it's origins there is no reason you can't. If your already using enough crank case oil to even consider using used oil in it, then its near shot anyway. My engine is using a gallon every 4 tanks of fuel, so once I obtain a known "good" "clean" source of oil from my neighbors tractos, then thats what it gets from now till it grenades.

Wow, thank you for the valuable information. That's the science I was fishing for. It wasn't a question of usage as much as a question of rate of return. I am looking into the WMO route for my work truck (landscape business) and was looking at costs. Given the miles I typically put on these vehicles a year I would have to filter a hell of a lot of oil and I figured why not use it for lube too? I was not sure of what additional filtering would need to be done and was not aware of the need to balance the pH. Thanks a lot for the help!

So what do you guys do with the sludge?

 

[leswhitt]

As I understand engine oil, there are anti-wear and detergent additives that get "used" up and fresh oil is needed to replace them. I've also read that as these additives get used up, they create a byproduct that is harmful to bearings and certain metals (possibly the acid mentioned above). Oil also gets thicker with use so that eventually, you'll be outside of your weight recommendation.

For a question like this, I'd recommend bobistheoilguy.com as they have a huge knowledge base and likely have petroleum engineers that can definitively answer the question.

For example, here's a couple copy/pastes straight from the site that talks about the diminished quality of used oil.

"Oil has 3 states of lubrication, hydrodynamic, mixed film, and boundary(barrier). The best is hydrodynamic which is nothing more than a flow of oil separating two mating surfaces. After a period of time shearing, the oil will lose it’s ability to hold up to the same flow as before since the VI Improvers are breaking down causing the oil to thin down in grade. Once this happens, there is less film strength between the mating surfaces so it doesn’t take as much for the oil to shear, therefore creating more heat which attacks the base oil even more and then starts to cause the oil to thicken up due to the excessive levels of heat and the broken down VI Improvers become a contaminant which added to the existing oil will continue to thicken and ultimately cause sludge if not changed in a reasonable time."


"Engine lubricants are generally used to reduce friction between moving parts within the interior engine. In addition to the lubricating function, motor oil also serves as a coolant, corrosion protector, and method of removing contaminants from the engine filter. In other words, motor oil holds the same importance to an engine that blood holds for humans. Loss of any essential function of the motor oil will lead to serious engine damage if not treated. Through the oxidation of motor oil, its essential functions are destroyed. This degradation usually begins to cause severe engine damage.

As lubricants degrade, their physical properties (e.g. viscosity) change, leading to increased friction and wear. This degradation is primarily due to base oil oxidation. Oxidation is due to free radical attacks against the base oil’s chemical composition. Base oil is the petroleum component of the lubricant. Generally, the base oil comprises eighty percent of the lubricant, with the remainder being additives."

 

[Zaggnutt]

As I understand engine oil, there are anti-wear and detergent additives that get "used" up and fresh oil is needed to replace them. I've also read that as these additives get used up, they create a byproduct that is harmful to bearings and certain metals (possibly the acid mentioned above). Oil also gets thicker with use so that eventually, you'll be outside of your weight recommendation.

For a question like this, I'd recommend bobistheoilguy.com as they have a huge knowledge base and likely have petroleum engineers that can definitively answer the question.

Good info. I'll sift through the site more when I get a chance. Honestly I'm not concerned about the additives. I would venture without corroborating info that the additives would not have been there 30 years ago. I am more concerned with the lubricating properties of the oil and obviously the cleanliness. Clean oil will do its job either way, but I'm wondering if it breaks down faster after being used already.....

Hmmm. I will have to investigate. Lot's of good info to chew on. Thanks guys.

 

[leswhitt]

Good info. I'll sift through the site more when I get a chance. Honestly I'm not concerned about the additives. I would venture without corroborating info that the additives would not have been there 30 years ago. I am more concerned with the lubricating properties of the oil and obviously the cleanliness. Clean oil will do its job either way, but I'm wondering if it breaks down faster after being used already.....

Hmmm. I will have to investigate. Lot's of good info to chew on. Thanks guys.

Additives have been around since the 1930s and have been in widespread use since the 40's/50's. The additives give the oil a significant part of it's lubricating ability, straight oil by itself isn't nearly as good as modified oil. The concept to understand is that cleaning the oil is only a small part of the battle, you also have to replace the content of the oil that has been "used up" if you're dealing with a modern engine that calls for oil with specific ratings.

And yes, oil definitely breaks down faster as it gets more hours on it, it actually starts to thicken and sludge up and what may have been 15W40 creeps up and you might end up with 30W70. From personal experience, I've seen big rigs show low oil pressure when the oil has been in too long, it's because it thickens up to the point that it'll barely pump and that definitely can't be good for bearings and surfaces.

 

[Highrock Farrier]

I seem to remember an article in an old Mother Earth news where a guy built a filter from toilet tissue rolls in a pvc pipe and used WMO in his VW beetle for about a jillion miles. But then, it was a VW. IIRC he then used the contaminated rolls to start brush fires on his homestead. Must not have been a true tree hugger, huh? Still have to deal with the ph though. Just my 1 1/2cents worth of useless knowledge.