Weird issue with timing my bull moose

[IDIoit]

maybe i need to buy a meter and a bottle of jack.....
yea thatll fix it
this was my main problem on this install, i did it all sober!
and without my 215 medication!!!

this is why i thought i had done something incorrectly! if i advanced it according to the meter it didnt run as good.
but if i retarded it, according to the meter, it ran better...

this is why i had the other member come over and help me out! BAM same issue!
odds are very slim that both of us would screw up exactly the same, even tho we timed it like everyone else does....
i do not consider myself a pro, in fact im more along the lines of an IDIot!
but timing is pretty moron proof!

 

[IDIoit]

GM ip's look completely different.
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21792&d=1221537790

 

[ironworker40]

My reason for asking I was thinking a bad connection at cold advance that was advancing and retarding timing, but you disconnected it so that out. I cannot figure how it could be backwards but I'm sure Mel will chime in here and then maybe we will have an answer.

 

[gandalf]

It's a mystery, isn't it? Reverse direction timing sounds really weird.

Since we're reaching for straws and taking wild guesses, lets reconsider Laserjocks idea about a GM pump. We know that they turn in the opposite direction from a Ford. That's a known fact. It's also a known fact that GM has run a Stanadyne DB2 pump. BUT it turns in the opposite direction from a Ford DB2 pump. IF (and that's a big if) a GM pump could be made to run on a Ford engine, then it would stand to reason that the timing would be the reverse of Ford's timing.

The GM DB2 pumps are not all that dissimilar from the Ford DB2 pump in appearance. To an extent they seem to be mirror images of each other.

That's a GM DB2 pump.

Now, if that is what happened, I would have expected said member/helper to have recognized the difference in pumps.

But since we're guessing at this point, that's my wild-ass guess for the night. Maybe not even a guess as much as a possibility.

 

[IDIoit]

It's a mystery, isn't it? Reverse direction timing sounds really weird.

Since we're reaching for straws and taking wild guesses, lets reconsider Laserjocks idea about a GM pump. We know that they turn in the opposite direction from a Ford. That's a known fact. It's also a known fact that GM has run a Stanadyne DB2 pump. BUT it turns in the opposite direction from a Ford DB2 pump. IF (and that's a big if) a GM pump could be made to run on a Ford engine, then it would stand to reason that the timing would be the reverse of Ford's timing.

The GM DB2 pumps are not all that dissimilar from the Ford DB2 pump in appearance. To an extent they seem to be mirror images of each other.

That's a GM DB2 pump.

Now, if that is what happened, I would have expected said member/helper to have recognized the difference in pumps.

But since we're guessing at this point, that's my wild-ass guess for the night. Maybe not even a guess as much as a possibility.

the triangle shape of the mounting flange to the IP gear cover, and the placement of what i only guess is the FSS on the GM pump, tell me that i definitely have a ford DB2 casting.
i f this was the case, i would have caught it at installation due to the fact that i wouldnt have been able to install the throttle cable.
the instal went in fairly easy!

 

[The Warden]

we also cleaned a different spot on #1 injector line, because he said even tho i hit bright shiny metal (right next to the injector nut) , being that close to a 90* bend in the line can do funky things.

How far away from the injector nut was the second spot you used? And, how did the timing compare between using the second spot and putting the clamp on the original spot? I wonder if that could make a difference?

I'll toss this out for shear stupidity sake. I in no way think this is the problem but hey, wth. It's not a gm pump is it? The run backwards from the ford ones. I don't even know if it would run. Probably not. Hey. Hairbrained idea over.

Not a stupid idea, and I spent about 45 minutes exploring that possibiltiy earlier...and, after figuring out which injector would fire where if a GM pump were installed on a Ford, I realized that even though the GM pumps are designed to rotate in the opposite direction, installing the pump on a Ford won't change the pump's rotation. It would still turn the same way, and rotating the pump in one or the other direction would do the same for timing that it would do with the proper pump.

Also, the firing order's different enough between the GM engines and the Ford engines that, if a GM pump were installed and the lines were put in the spots where you'd expect them for a Ford pump, the engine would run very roughly if at all.

One other thing to keep in mind...IIRC having the timing too far advanced will make the engine feel like it's running better, with more perceived power. However, over the long run the glow plug tips and the injector tips will get trashed, and IIRC further internal damage is possible. So, if the timing was too far advanced before, getting it set "right" may cause a bit of a reduction in power, although it should also affect EGT's and coolant temps...

 

[Shadetreemechanic]

The only thing I can think of is that your rotation of the pump changes the fuel pressure coming in. Pinched line or debris in the inlet screen. Seems unlikely.

 

[laserjock]

GM ip's look completely different.
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21792&d=1221537790

I did say it was a crazy stupid idea. You quickly confirmed that. Trying to think outside the box. Stuff happens.

 

[IDIoit]

I did say it was a crazy stupid idea. You quickly confirmed that. Trying to think outside the box. Stuff happens.

outside the box thinking is exactly what we need here.
any idea is a good idea IMO, im just so damned stumped.
looks like everyone else is in the same boat.
may as well break out the waterskis!
but i definitely have a ford pump, externally.

i just dont want to run the risk of melting things.
this is my daily driver, but it looks like shes going on the sidelines until i can get this issue solved.

 

[IDIoit]

How far away from the injector nut was the second spot you used? And, how did the timing compare between using the second spot and putting the clamp on the original spot? I wonder if that could make a difference?


Not a stupid idea, and I spent about 45 minutes exploring that possibiltiy earlier...and, after figuring out which injector would fire where if a GM pump were installed on a Ford, I realized that even though the GM pumps are designed to rotate in the opposite direction, installing the pump on a Ford won't change the pump's rotation. It would still turn the same way, and rotating the pump in one or the other direction would do the same for timing that it would do with the proper pump.

Also, the firing order's different enough between the GM engines and the Ford engines that, if a GM pump were installed and the lines were put in the spots where you'd expect them for a Ford pump, the engine would run very roughly if at all.

One other thing to keep in mind...IIRC having the timing too far advanced will make the engine feel like it's running better, with more perceived power. However, over the long run the glow plug tips and the injector tips will get trashed, and IIRC further internal damage is possible. So, if the timing was too far advanced before, getting it set "right" may cause a bit of a reduction in power, although it should also affect EGT's and coolant temps...

we cleaned an area of #1 approximately 2" before the 90* bend to the injector, timing varied about .5 of a degree

 

[Agnem]

Hmm... sorry to see this is still an issue for you. I remember when you first called about it, and then we spoke again and you said it was solved, and the problem was with the meter? Anyway, the thing is this, and I'm not in any way saying your not seeing what your seeing, BUT.... it is physically impossible for proper rotation of the pump to result in a timing result that is the opposite of what physics dictate must be true. Look at it this way, when the throttle is in the full throttle position, you have zero degrees of advance. The cam ring is now engaging the plungers as late as possible. The engine is turning the plungers against the cam in a clockwise fashion. When you rotate the pump counter-clockwise, towards the passenger fender, you are rotating the cam ring INTO the oncoming plungers, causing them to collide with the cam ring lobes EARLIER. This results in an injection event that occurs sooner, rather than later. Even if the pump were bad... no advance, or advance malfunctioning, there is no way that earlier timing could not result. It simply isn't physically possible, even stretching the realm of all possibilities that I could possibly think of, I cannot by any stretch of the imagination, come up with a viable explanation for how this could result in retarded timing. I'm truly baffled! I personally built this pump and can vouch for it being 100% when it left. Just to qualm the concerns that this is a GM pump, the main difference internally between a GM and Ford Moose pump, is that the cam ring gets flipped over from one version to the other. If that were true then I would not be able to fit the advance jig which bolts to the side of the pump. There is a grove in the cam ring that engages the jig, and it would have been on the wrong side of the pump. That would be a huge red flag, and prevent any further testing of the pump. And no, there is no possibility that a Moose pump can leave here without being calibrated. The tag on the side does not go on until after that has occurred, the pump gets clear coated afterwards, and there is a bunch of paperwork with 3 different people looking at it. Given the difficulty you are having, perhaps the best answer is to try to time it by ear. I don't ever recommend that, but given that something else is going on that we can't seem to put a finger on, maybe that is the best and most effective way to set it. This may be a longshot, but there isn't anything near the bottom of the drivers side of the pump when you are rotating it, is there? Something that could interfere with the movement of the advance lever?

 

[IDIoit]

no sir, the advance lever is clear from any obstruction.
i know that you build these pumps for a living, and your reputation is out there for the best pumps for our trucks.
and not just on the internet either!
this is why i suspect there is an error in something i have done.
just trying to figure it out!

 

[IDIoit]

another piece of information,
the trucks takes a few seconds at 6.5/7* to start.
i just fired it off at this setting (9.9) for the first time and it only took 3 rev's
no air in the system.
glow plug system is bran new motorcraft parts

 

[IDIoit]

and another piece of the puzzle.
i dont know if it matters much,
to turn the pump counter clockwise,
it does take a bit of an effort to turn due to my injection lines...

 

[icanfixall]

I'm still feeling its fuel delivery issues. I know you posted there is correct pressure leaving the fuel filter. But whats the injection pump inlet fuel pressure? I can't tell you where to find that either. Only know that you had pressure issues before and installing an electric lift pump fixed that. So did the injection pump screen get loaded up because something got past the new fuel filter? You will have to ask permission to remove the back of the pump from Mel to check this screen. I do have a nice video from u tube that shows the way this pump works. The idea of correctly moving the pump towards advance but getting retarded timing is not of this world. But there it is happening to you. Even if the gear was timed off 1 tooth it still will advance the timing no matter what if you turn the pump in the passenger direction.. Maybe try a cheap electric lift pump just to verify the pump you have now is not suffering a pressure drop at 2000 rpm draw of fuel flow. You can have proper pressure but not proper flow rate. then the pressure sags and the timing WILL change. I'm really reaching now but not much else makes sence. It was bad pressure and a new lift pump fixed that. But now that same symptom has returned....