piston coatings?
- Thread starter lbzbuick
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88 Ford
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I haven't had it done but it is really good for heat protection. I do know NMB2 had it done and he has hit pretty high on his egts in short spurts...
Dave Barbieri
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The skirts on my new Mahle pistons have been moly coated and the tops have been ceramic coated. Right now, the pistons are still in their box; I haven't started putting the motor back together. This'll be the second engine I've used coated pistons in and it'll be the second time I've installed Total Seal gapless rings.
You will notice a couple of differences. What you won't notice is a massive increase in power, nor will the engine be any quieter. You will notice a small increase in power and a big decrease in blow-by. I spent the money to make sure that my pistons trapped heat energy above the rings, where it becomes RWHP. Coatings limit the energy transferred into the piston dome and help the piston slide easily against the walls. This minimizes heat damage and friction loss and ensures that more heat energy is transferred into motion. Gapless rings limit compression loss which means more pressure against the top of the piston and fewer combustion byproducts down into the oil. To me, this is an insurance policy. I'm spending the money to ensure that my runs more efficiently, which means more HP and better MPG. For me, it's $$$ well spent, because it pays back the entire life of the engine.
You will notice a couple of differences. What you won't notice is a massive increase in power, nor will the engine be any quieter. You will notice a small increase in power and a big decrease in blow-by. I spent the money to make sure that my pistons trapped heat energy above the rings, where it becomes RWHP. Coatings limit the energy transferred into the piston dome and help the piston slide easily against the walls. This minimizes heat damage and friction loss and ensures that more heat energy is transferred into motion. Gapless rings limit compression loss which means more pressure against the top of the piston and fewer combustion byproducts down into the oil. To me, this is an insurance policy. I'm spending the money to ensure that my runs more efficiently, which means more HP and better MPG. For me, it's $$$ well spent, because it pays back the entire life of the engine.
Not to hijack, but since we are on the subject of coatings - has anyone done Ferritic nitrocarburized passivation (aka melonite, qpq, nitriding) on engine internals for the 6.9/7.3? They do this to lower end components and I think cams on modern motors, and it is very economical to have done. Surface hardness and lubricity is incredible, it is now done on gun barrels with amazing results.
Our Cranks are already hardened thus you can't grind em!
icanfixall
Official GMM hand model
I used the Techline CBX coating on my piston tops. The CBX material is a hazardous material to work with so the company wont sell it directly to you. You pay for it and they ship it to a shop that they know and trust to apply it. Mine really looks just like aluminum top pistons. Its the same color as the pistons are so it tuff to actually see the coating. Mahle sells a piston with a black anadoised piston top coating too.
The skirts on my new Mahle pistons have been moly coated and the tops have been ceramic coated. Right now, the pistons are still in their box; I haven't started putting the motor back together. This'll be the second engine I've used coated pistons in and it'll be the second time I've installed Total Seal gapless rings.
You will notice a couple of differences. What you won't notice is a massive increase in power, nor will the engine be any quieter. You will notice a small increase in power and a big decrease in blow-by. I spent the money to make sure that my pistons trapped heat energy above the rings, where it becomes RWHP. Coatings limit the energy transferred into the piston dome and help the piston slide easily against the walls. This minimizes heat damage and friction loss and ensures that more heat energy is transferred into motion. Gapless rings limit compression loss which means more pressure against the top of the piston and fewer combustion byproducts down into the oil. To me, this is an insurance policy. I'm spending the money to ensure that my runs more efficiently, which means more HP and better MPG. For me, it's $$$ well spent, because it pays back the entire life of the engine.
Can you please provide the part number for the Total Seal gapless rings? these are for the second ring land correct?
I agree with your statements btw. Ceramic coating does protect the crown of the piston, the moly coat or teflon coated side does decrease friction.
Our pistions are hard anodized IIRC on the dome already.
ONE THING people....do all your mock up and so forth first. Set Piston deck height etc prior to any coating. If your going for the perfect blue print matching the deck heights and such. This type of work gets done prior to your piston coating so if any pistons need shaving to be matched you can...then you coat. All piston crowns are setup the same then and ya good to go!
Dave Barbieri
Full Access Member
Nitriding is a great process. There's a regrind shop in Dallas that nitrides all their cams. They come back matte black and beautiful. The old ceramic coating that was used on my veedub 1.6TD was almost a tan color. The new stuff looks like dull aluminum. The sides of the piston are shiny; the top is dull. You can see the part #'s and stuff through the coating.
For Total Seal, I spoke with Keith Jones. He's the tech guy at TS (623.587.7400). I could buy the rings as a kit for approx $300. Or, I could send my rings in to be modified as gapless. The cost was $10 for setup and $10 per ring. $90 plus $18 for shipping. That's the way I went.
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For Total Seal, I spoke with Keith Jones. He's the tech guy at TS (623.587.7400). I could buy the rings as a kit for approx $300. Or, I could send my rings in to be modified as gapless. The cost was $10 for setup and $10 per ring. $90 plus $18 for shipping. That's the way I went.
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Will they nitride a cam sent in that doesn't need grinding? The exact conditions of nitriding is specific to the alloy, so random shops may not be able to do any piece of steel thrown their way. Since the shop you mentioned knows the process, it could be a good resource for someone who wants to nitride a typ4 cam - which I would guess is case hardened?
Dave Barbieri
Full Access Member
Don't know. The last time I did business with them was years ago. I'll see if they're still around. The shop was on the east side of Dallas on Buckner, south of I-30.
Can you provide pictures for me of these? I am fully aware of how TS gapless rings work and I don't understand how they can modify rings to make them gapless? it makes NO SENSE!
Dave Barbieri
Full Access Member
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They machine the recess into the 2nd ring. (pics 1 & 2) This recess is filled by the rail-style ring (pic 3) that covers the ring gap. (pic 4) This add-on ring looks just like the rail ring on a three-part oil ring. Your $10 pays for the machining and the separate rail ring. The first $10 covers the setup.
Dave Barbieri
Full Access Member
I got my pistons coated at Classic Coatings.
http://www.classiccoatings.com/index2.html
To have the skirts moly coated and the domes thermal barrier coated (TBC) was $30/piston. Shipping back to the house was $24. Total bill - $263
http://www.classiccoatings.com/index2.html
To have the skirts moly coated and the domes thermal barrier coated (TBC) was $30/piston. Shipping back to the house was $24. Total bill - $263
OH OK...I understand now...ROFL...I think I'd rather machine the ring lands themselves like back in the day....we would have the ring land on piston machined to accept a med tension oil ring scraper just like you see them using...I would prefer more RING surface area in this instance due to the extreme duty of diesel vs gasser.
Their setup of zero gap ring IIRC has a stepped end that overlaps each end of the piston ring....creating the zero gap.
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Thanks for that info, I'd consider it if I wasnt uncomfortable with the lack of ring surface...though as a second ring perhaps it's not that bad...
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