piston coatings?

[88 Ford]

For Total Seal, I spoke with Keith Jones. He's the tech guy at TS (623.587.7400). I could buy the rings as a kit for approx $300. Or, I could send my rings in to be modified as gapless. The cost was $10 for setup and $10 per ring. $90 plus $18 for shipping. That's the way I went.

Do they install them as well? Or is the $18 just to send your rings? Also what type of ring are you running and where did you get them? I found some Moly rings for a decent price, are those decent rings?

 

[Dave Barbieri]

Moly-coated rings are great. They break in quickly, seal well, and last a long time. The molybdenum coating is very slick and has super oil retention properties. It adds cost to the ring, but it's absolutely worth it.

The $18 just covers shipping. You get to put them on. It's just like installing the oil control ring. You put the 'big' piece on first, then walk the thinner ring around the outside, making sure the gaps are 180* apart.

 

[Dave Barbieri]

OH OK...I understand now...ROFL...I think I'd rather machine the ring lands themselves like back in the day....we would have the ring land on piston machined to accept a med tension oil ring scraper just like you see them using...I would prefer more RING surface area in this instance due to the extreme duty of diesel vs gasser.

Their setup of zero gap ring IIRC has a stepped end that overlaps each end of the piston ring....creating the zero gap.

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Thanks for that info, I'd consider it if I wasnt uncomfortable with the lack of ring surface...though as a second ring perhaps it's not that bad...

Actually, your total ring surface remains the same. Now it's just in two parts. Strength, longevity and reliability remain the same. The rail concept works on oil control rings, so the application's proven and time-tested.

 

[88 Ford]

So the Moly rings that I can get from Endurance Power should be good then? For the pistons with rings they are $87 a piece. I'm sure sending the rings out to TS would be good as well.

 

[Dave Barbieri]

So the Moly rings that I can get from Endurance Power should be good then?

Depends on who's supplying the ring sets to EP. If you're talking Perfect Circle, Hastings, Federal Mogul, ProSeal or other name brand vendors, then you're in good shape. Moly rings are a great idea.

 

[88 Ford]

Ok. I'll make sure who the manufacturer is. Thank you for the advice.

 

[Devon Harley]

Do those truly decrease blow by?

 

[88 Ford]

I would think so just due to the fact of having a tighter cylinder tolerance...

 

[Dave Barbieri]

Yes, these rings noticeably decrease blow-by. They use tighter tolerances, but not between the ring and cylinder wall. These rings eliminate the 'open gate' of the ring gap. That's why you stagger the ring gaps when you install rings. You're trying to confuse the gasses trying to escape and slow down their progress til the ring is further down the bore on the power stroke. Total Seal rings pretty much eliminate the gap from the second ring. Look at the picture RW provided in post #18. See the shiny silver circle inside the ring? That's the inner piece of the two-ring design. You install it first, then install the larger ring. With the modified gap that you see and the staggered gap of the inner ring, compression gasses don't have a chance to escape. Can they still make it around the ring, between the ring and the cylinder wall? Sure. Break-in is important; oil changes/maintenance are important, because it's healthy rings that make this system work. And it works well. That's why I spent the $$ to do it on this engine.

 

[riotwarrior]

Actually, your total ring surface remains the same. Now it's just in two parts. Strength, longevity and reliability remain the same. The rail concept works on oil control rings, so the application's proven and time-tested.

Again, my only concern in a diesel application is that, the modified ring has less SEALING FACE surface area and mass to seal as well as essentially dissipate heat and also being modified has more surface area for carbon buildup or coking between the rings.

Maybe I'm wrong...I don't know I have not proven this either way...it's just me voicing an opinion...

Seems odd they would sell a set of Gapless rings for considerably more money than regular rings and the mods.....????? makes me wonder how long the modded rings last in comparison.

YES Gapless rings seal considerably much better than stock cut rings. Either this style or the overlap type I referred to. Once an engine is broken in you can expect to see significantly less blow by, and actual leakdown tests prove how well these will seal!

 

[icanfixall]

We have not heard from Towcat on these piston rings yet. He has made some posts about a set of rings that outlast all the others. They are expensive but the best usually is more costly. I hope he chimes in on this because he knows what he is talking about when it comes to these engines lasting longer. What he knows is proven on his tow fleet first. then it ends up here.

 

[lbzbuick]

Thanks for all the responses! good info

 

[Brad S.]

A while back Towcat put a thread in the wmo/wvo section about gapless rings, and how they keep oil "cleaner".
If a person does the piston coating & gapless rings on a daily driver that uses wmo, could that produce some "ill effects" carbon etc???
I know a couple of guys have mentioned the fact that these engines are at the best when pulling, or working hard, just thinking out loud.

 

[Dave Barbieri]

We have not heard from Towcat on these piston rings yet. He has made some posts about a set of rings that outlast all the others. They are expensive but the best usually is more costly. I hope he chimes in on this because he knows what he is talking about when it comes to these engines lasting longer. What he knows is proven on his tow fleet first. then it ends up here.

Absolutely! There's nothing like prior experience with a product to help make decisions. That's the great thing about this list. Folks write in with their live-and-up-close view of how things really work. Some work really well and wind up as tech articles. Some don't work so well and wind up in the Hall of Shame. Towcat's experiences with Total Seal will be great to hear about. His fleet faces hard use over long hours and that's a great test for any product.

The reason I chose TS for my second ring is prior experience. I'm a happy repeat customer. Seven years ago, I ordered the 2nd ring set for my veedub Jetta 1.6TD overhaul. I liked what I saw in terms of mpg, blow-by and butt dyno. Since this truck is being built for the long haul (seriously long haul), the added expense made sense. My one concern went back to prior experience. I had great results from these rings on a small diesel. What happens when the size increases over 400%? That's where talking to Keith Jones really helped. Lots of information, good sense of humor, easy to talk to. I took the plunge and spent the money. Now, thanks to Brad S' post, I'm really glad I did:

Here's a closely held secret that I have been doing for some time. I have a total of four motors in service with these rings installed. the oldest has 150k on the ODO. no blowby yet they are a ***** to put in though.
Basically my vote is for the setup Justin has mentioned plus Total Seal rings.
here's the specs.....
Part Details
Make FORD-LINCOLN, Mercury Model 445CI NAVISTAR DIESEL NON-TURBO, SPECIAL GAP 2ND RING .062”-.072”
Part Number S1474 Available Sizes STD 20 30 40
Dimension Details
Bore Inch 4.110 Bore mm 104.394
Groove Sizes 3.0 2.0 3.46 TSD Cylinder 8




Price $ 408.20
Also Fits
1
Make Name VehType Make/Model Litre Year Bore Inch Bore mm Groove Size PistonFitment Gapless Top Ring Gapless 2nd Ring Conv Ring Oil Ten Use Available Sizes
FORD-LINCOLN, Mercury Car 445CI NAVISTAR DIESEL NON-TURBO, SPECIAL GAP 2ND RING .062”-.072” 7.3L 89-95 4.110 104.394 3.0 2.0 3.46 TSD S1474 C1474 STD S STD 20 30 40

http://www.totalseal.com/PartDetails.aspx?From=Application

TC posted this over 2 years ago. It'll be good to hear how these rings have held up with commercial use over the past 24 months. Now there's a road test!

Again, my only concern in a diesel application is that, the modified ring has less SEALING FACE surface area and mass to seal as well as essentially dissipate heat and also being modified has more surface area for carbon buildup or coking between the rings.

Maybe I'm wrong...I don't know I have not proven this either way...it's just me voicing an opinion...

Seems odd they would sell a set of Gapless rings for considerably more money than regular rings and the mods.....????? makes me wonder how long the modded rings last in comparison.

I get it. Here's what I've seen - the set for the Jetta was two piece and so's the set for the 6.9. In my sets, the picture you posted is the outer ring. Behind and below that ring is an L-shaped ring, whose gap in on the other side of the piston. This way, there's no clear path for combustion gasses/debris. You're worried about the sealing surface. When the rings are installed, you might get a piece of paper between the two rings. Maybe. There truly is no appreciable loss of sealing surface. What you gain is a gap-free barrier to combustion gas. As far as price, you basically get a 50% rebate if you supply the rings. The finished product looks the same. You just reduced part of the manufacturing cost and that savings is passed back to you. Pretty good deal all around. Now understand, we're just talking about the second ring. If you want the full set, or if you want your first compression ring to be two-piece as well, the cost goes up. Way up.

And yes, they are a PITA to install. But like I keep saying - WORTH IT ! !

 

[lbzbuick]

Riotwarrier, i see what you wrote about doing all the fitting first then getting the coatings done. I am going to be getting the internals ballanced. What is the correct order I should get this stuff done? Anyones answer will be help too. thanks