Not your Average Dana 60 Swap

[BrandonMag]

Nice work and great information!
I picked up a set of axles from a 2003 F250. Had planned on running them under my F350, but after reading this, I may slap them under my F250 (the F350 is a long-term project that won't be seeing the road for awhile). A solid front axle and four wheel disc brakes would be awesome!

 

[TWeatherford]

Thats pretty slick. I'm sold. I need to replace my wheels & tires (wheels don't fit right, tires are worn), rebuild my front dana 60 eventually, swap gears front and rear from 4.10 to 3.55 or maybe 3.73. That will cost a fair amount, so I'm thinking that I could go this route and kill a lot of birds with one big rock. I would love the rear discs brakes, better ride, and better turning radius, and it seems like a fair number of the new trucks are limited slip so that would be nice too. Just have to find the parts for a decent price.

 

[TWeatherford]

I've been looking into this more, and want to ask some questions. Excuse me if you answered this above, I didn't see where you did.

Is it a stock suspension - ie no 2" lift? Are you close to rubbing tires at full suspension compression?

Any bump steer, death wobble, vibration etc?

Have you driven off road? I see a lot of guys going to 3 link or 4 link for drag racing, sled pulling (neither of which I care to do), or off road (which I do a fair amount). I guess the factory setup is a little rough off road, but I think its probably still way better than what I have now.

 

[bike-maker]

A little more information.

05-07 axles are typically 3.73 geared.

08+ are typically 3.55. Sometimes 3.31. Ford's attempt at improving fuel economy.

F450/550 have steeper gears. Axles with 4.30 or steeper gears are a true "Super 60" with more track width and bigger knuckles/Ujoints.


Front Coil springs:

Lots of different possibilities here. Rated anywhere from 4400 up to 7000 pounds, depending on chassis configuration and camper or snow plow packages.

6500 and 7000 springs are on F450/550's

The stiffest springs on a F350 (CCLB, 4x4, diesel with snow plow package) would have come with 6000 pound springs.

I used 6000 pound springs in my truck.

The reason I bring up all of the different spring ratings, is because they affect ride height. I recently picked up a set of 5600 pound springs to try out, which should soften the front up a tad, and will lower the front about 1/4-1/2".

So the difference between 4400 and 7000 pound springs (as near as I can tell) could change the ride height as much as 2.5"-3".

I'm running Superduty B code leaf springs and 4" blocks in the rear (factory 2003 F350 setup), and the 6000 pound coils in the front. Rake from front to rear is right about 2.5". Tires at first were worn out 285/75/18 - roughly 35 x 11 - with plenty of clearance when fully cycling the suspension. I have since switched to factory sized 275/70/18 - roughly 33x10.5.

The beauty of the coil spring setup is how easily it can be lifted. The coils sit on a cast spring mount that is bolted to the axle. The front can be lifted by simply putting a spacer between the spring mount and axle - and you can supposedly lift it about 2"-2.5" before castor starts getting out of whack.

Another option that I will eventually go with is Air Lift makes a set of airbags that just drop inside the coil springs and are less than $100. So when the time comes, I will swap to the 5600 pound coils, put airbags in the coils, and add a spacer to level the truck slightly. Then I can use my on board air setup to get all four corners of the truck sitting where I want it regardless of what load I put on it.

 

[bike-maker]

I've been looking into this more, and want to ask some questions. Excuse me if you answered this above, I didn't see where you did.

Is it a stock suspension - ie no 2" lift? Are you close to rubbing tires at full suspension compression?

Any bump steer, death wobble, vibration etc?

Have you driven off road? I see a lot of guys going to 3 link or 4 link for drag racing, sled pulling (neither of which I care to do), or off road (which I do a fair amount). I guess the factory setup is a little rough off road, but I think its probably still way better than what I have now.

Yes, stock suspension using the 6000 pound coils (see above post for a more in depth explanation)

I have been driving it for about a month now, and haven't noticed any bump steer, death wobble, weird vibrations, etc. Another important tidbit is that I still haven't even bolted the steering damper up. I did this on purpose to see if any of those issues would exist. If you research death wobble and bump steer on the newer trucks, they commonly will upgrade the stock steering damper to mask these problems.

I haven't driven it off road yet; I still haven't even shortened and installed the front drive shaft. The big limitation of this front suspension is in it's articulation. The stock bushings don't let it flex very much at all. When I was cycling the front suspension before the coils were in place, I could only raise one side of the axle about 1.5" before the other side would start following it.

The other issue I've heard of is that the 2 bushings (per side) on the axle is what prevents the axle from twisting. Due to them being close together, when you really start working the front end, the bushings don't have enough leverage to keep the axle in place rotationally, and can result in the axle trying to load/unload the bushings resulting on the front in "hopping" - kind of like axle wrap in a leaf spring setup. I have only heard of this occurring when bigger tires are involved on the stock radius arm setup.

So if off roading is in your future, a 4 link setup would probably be the way to go. Any of the 05 + lift kits - including the 4 link conversions, would be a direct bolt in on my truck.

 

[bike-maker]

And now for a minor update:

I ditched the stock power steering cooler and instead ran the return line through the transmission cooler built in to the bottom of the radiator. Doesn't work. Apparently, the trans cooler doesn't have enough flow, which results in the return lines building up too much pressure, and then subsequently leaking from just about every orifice, along with sucking in air, making the pump cavitate.

After the issues arose, a quick search netted a few other people that have attempted this with the same results.

Needless to say, I have now bypassed the cooler, but my power steering pump is terminal. Making all kinds of moaning/groaning sounds and sending weird vibrations through the hydro booster that vibrates through the firewall and pedals...

Since the pump is dying a slow, painful death, I figure it's time to upgrade the whole system. I'm going to switch to a saginaw pump with a power steering cooler out of whatever I find at the junk yard.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Another option that I will eventually go with is Air Lift makes a set of airbags that just drop inside the coil springs and are less than $100. So when the time comes, I will swap to the 5600 pound coils, put airbags in the coils, and add a spacer to level the truck slightly. Then I can use my on board air setup to get all four corners of the truck sitting where I want it regardless of what load I put on it.

I'd recommend against the in-coil bladders. The thing with air suspension of any kind is, you want the largest bellows you can fit - the larger the bellows the less air pressure it needs to provide the lifting force you want, and the less pressure you have the smoother it rides. The in-coil bladders have a pretty small diameter, 4" or less, and their shape does not conduct to easy up-down motion - they ride quite stiff unless there is a significant load on them, not a big deal if you got a snow plow hanging way up front but if you're just using them for adjusting ride height you'll most likely be pretty disappointed by the ride quality. On top of that they are in constant contact with the coils, so you have rubbing all the time - one for the fundamentals of any air-ride suspension is to avoid anything rubbing on the bellows, well these things come with a design flaw built in - yes they are cheap, but longevity may be an issue.

Well, you could try running the softer coils with the air bladders inside them, that may work. On our IDI we have the 460 leaves with 7" air bellows on top of them, takes very little pressure to change the ride height by several inches and rides very well, very stable in corners yet nice and smooth when it hits bumps. Pretty sure if we had the 351 leaves on it it would be about as close to a 60s Cadillac as the LT tries allow

I ditched the stock power steering cooler and instead ran the return line through the transmission cooler built in to the bottom of the radiator. Doesn't work. Apparently, the trans cooler doesn't have enough flow, which results in the return lines building up too much pressure, and then subsequently leaking from just about every orifice, along with sucking in air, making the pump cavitate.

After the issues arose, a quick search netted a few other people that have attempted this with the same results.

Needless to say, I have now bypassed the cooler, but my power steering pump is terminal. Making all kinds of moaning/groaning sounds and sending weird vibrations through the hydro booster that vibrates through the firewall and pedals...

Since the pump is dying a slow, painful death, I figure it's time to upgrade the whole system. I'm going to switch to a saginaw pump with a power steering cooler out of whatever I find at the junk yard.

From info I've seen around the web the factory pumps flow around 1-1.5 GPM, so like 60-90 GPH. Dunno what flow the trans cooler inside the rad is rated for, but it must be above 30-35 GPH as IIRC that's what the factory fuel lift pump flows and it has no problem pushing that thru said heat exchanger if you choose to retask it as a fuel hear instead...

In the junkyard look for GM transmission coolers, they tend to be of the stacked-plate design with the 3/8" ports you'll need to match your PS hoses, and those in the 1-ton trucks are usually quite large as well. We have one of those plumbed in our PS system, works like it's meant to be there.

 

[laserjock]

Thanks SO MUCH for the update. I was planning on plumbing mine that way until I read this.

 

[bike-maker]

No problem.
LCAM, I don't plan on using the bags to arbitrarily change the ride height; just to get it back to it's standard ride height once I throw something heavy in the back - like my camper. The camper would squash the older, stiffer leaf springs about 2". The newer, softer springs only loose 1.5", with the front end loosing only about 1".

 

[LCAM-01XA]

It's interesting how the new "softer" leaves actually support the load better than the older "stiffer" leaves. Difference in metallurgy when making them I guess. But yeah, I know what you mean about maintaining one set ride height all the time, that's kinda what we're shooting for also, except with being able to lift or lower the thing a few inches as road conditions may call for it, plus side-to-side and front-to-back leveling for the camper

 

[04_6.0]

sweet good work

 

[ps444mike]

sub mucho great info..

 

[bike-maker]

Been driving it around for a number of months now, still seems to be working great.
But there's always room for improvement, and I've been tweeking things hear and there, so I figured it was time for an update.

So before the axle swap, I had 35's on it, and it sat like this:

You must be registered for see images attach

After the swap, the wheels I bought came with a set of 35's, and it sat like this:

You must be registered for see images attach

Finally got some measurements off of a stock F350, and with the new axles, it sat at almost the exact same height as a bone stock Dana 60 equipped F350.

But it had a little more rake than I wanted, and I found a set of 5600 lb. coils for the front. So I swapped in the coils (which would have lowered it about 1/2") along with some 2" spacers I made to level it out. So I raised the front up about 1.5" - taking the rake from 3" down to about 1.5".

Also, the 35's that came with the wheels were beyond worn out, so I picked up a set of Toyo M55's in a 275/70/18 - there about a 33 x 10.5 - which is a stock size for one of the newer super dutys.

How it sits currently:

You must be registered for see images attach

I'm thinking now of making some 1" blocks, and splitting the difference.

The 5600 pound coils did soften the front end up a bit. I'll probably try some 5200 lb. coils eventually, but that will be a while. Seems like the softer coils will help on the more gradual bumps, but may be worse on the sharper ones. My reasoning? There's probably almost 1000 pounds of un-sprung weight on the front axle alone. When you hit something sharp (like a speed bump), the stiffer springs actual stabilize the front suspension from getting tossed around under the truck. For this reason, it makes since that People have reported that a good set of shocks can make a big difference in how these axles ride. I have a set of the factory Rancho's on my truck, which are known to be nothing better than stock shocks with a fancy sticker on them.

 

[bike-maker]

And some of the other little things I've been chipping away at:

I need some steps for the truck; It gained just enough height that it's a pain in the ass to get into. I took my Mom to the local hardware store and had to get a step stool out for her to get in the truck....I've got something in the works; I'll add to the post once they're done.

Still no steering stabilizer; haven't felt like I needed one yet, but still something that should be done.

Drop track bar bracket; need to settle on a front ride height first, but it could use a drop bracket to get the track bar and drag link nice and parallel. Still no signs of bump steer with the extra height, but I'll mess with it anyway. An aftermarket bracket will bolt right in place, so it's a pretty easy change.

Bigger master cylinder; still running the stock, old school cast iron 1-1/8" bore master cylinder. Seems to work just fine, but it will probably work even better with a bigger master to push more volume of brake fluid to the ginormous Super Duty calipers.

 

[bike-maker]

And for the one thing I did get done: swapped the power steering pump to a Saginaw pump. There's lots of info out there on this one, so I'll just hit on a few key points.

I sourced the pump from a 96 Chevy Astro Van. That's right, mini van parts are an upgrade for our trucks.....Some of the Astro vans had factory equipped hydroboost, along with Saginaw pumps with a remote reservoir. And there's lots of them wasting away in junk yards.

So I used a 96 Astro pump and reservoir, got a pulley off of an 80's Chevy truck (to convert the pump from serpentine to V-belts), and the inlet fitting fron a 70's Dodge truck.

I made my own adapter that bolts between the Saginaw and the stock pump bracket. There's a lot of talk on the internet about an elusive Saginaw pump that was made that fit the Ford C2 mounting bracket. All it was - a standard Saginaw "canned ham" pump with an adapter bolted to the front of it. Good luck trying to find one of these pumps. Luckily, you can order that bracket from PSC for about $30.

Pics of adapter I made:

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

And here's the pump bolted in place:

You must be registered for see images attach

The only good place I found for the remote reservoir was clear back by the fire wall. Seems like a long ways away, but it actually works out really well. The Asstro Saginaw only has 1 return line, the other return line is built in to the reservoir. So putting the reservoit clear back there actually just makes the return line from the hydro booster that much shorter.

You must be registered for see images attach

Dug an old transmission cooler out of the corner and built some brackets to hang it off of the front of the inter cooler:
Total overkill but the price was right...

You must be registered for see images attach

And the pressure line from the hydro booster to the pump:

For starters, there are 2 options for fittings for a stock application hydro boost pressure line where they connect to the pump:

You must be registered for see images attach

I believe the one on the left came in 90 and up trucks, the one on the right was from 89 and earlier.

I read on the net that the 89 down version (with the exposed O-ring) could be made to fit the Sag pump by drilling the Sag pressure fitting out. I tried this first. Got everything just about bled out, then jammed the wheel to the steering lock and Boom! Exploded the fitting out the back of the pump. Dumped about a gallon of ATF all over the garage floor.

At this point, it was a Sunday night, and my truck was stuck halfway in the garage, so I tried the newer style pressure hose. It has the same size threads, but seals differently. I knew it would probably leak like crazy but it might just get me by until I could have a proper hose made up. This one lasted a few minutes longer - long enough to get the truck moved. Then it exploded just as violently as the previous hose - this time dumping about a gallon of ATF across the driveway.

The stock C2 pressure hoses both just have a little internal clip that keeps the threaded part from being blown off of the line. While others have made these work, I wouldn't recommend trying to use them. They are known to be problematic on the newer trucks (hydro boost equipped super dutys), and with the extra pressure from the Saginaw pump, I wouldn't trust one.

There were 2 styles of fittings available on the Saginaw pumps:
The fitting on the left is the old school inverted flair version used up to about 1980.
The middle one is by far the most common. Seals with an oring but isn't held together with a cheesy clip like the Ford version.
The one on the right is identical to the one in the middle, just drilled out to adapt to the 89 down Stock Ford pressure line.

You must be registered for see images attach

Drug the remains of my brand new blown up pressure hose down to the local hydraulic shop and had them stick a new end on it. They didn't have an end that matched the newer style of fitting, so I went with the old school inverted flair fitting:

You must be registered for see images attach

Went right on, didn't leak, and didn't self destruct within minutes.

So how does it work? Definitely better than the Ford C2 pump. Never have to listen to it complain like the C2, and the extra pressure makes the steering and brakes work better. Not a major difference, but definitely noticeable.
Do I now have "pinky steering"? It's definitely not the super easy free wheeling feel of the old 70's land yachts I've driven. I can spin the wheel around with my pinky, but it takes some effort. I'd say it's just about perfect; but keep in mind I have a different steering setup. The newer axle gains it's extra turning radius by shortening the steering arms on the knuckles, meaning theres more leverage working against the steering linkage, requiring more pressure on the steering wheel to make the wheels turn.