Newbie ? 4 sp. Manuals in '86 F-350

[TBigLug]

Over on another site, (name unreleased), there was a debate that the diesels only came with a synchronized 4 sp not the creeper gear. I have a 1986 F-350 6.9 and a creeper gear 4 sp. Fairly certain it is the original tranny. Do I have a creeper because I have a factory "utility/ service body" truck rated at 10,000 lbs. or is it more likely it is a differant trans.?

 

[82F100SWB]

If first gear is unsyncronized, you don't have the factory transmission, or the syncro is long dead. First gear in these T19's is either 4.02, or 5.11:1, with the second being more common, 6.32:1(same ratio set as a T18) also exists, but, I've never seen one behind a diesel.
Take a look under there, does it have one, or 2 PTO ports?

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Like Mr F100 said, look for the PTO ports. The smallblock gasser trans comes with one port, on the passenger side. The diesel trans comes with two PTO ports, one on each side. From what I understand, the 460 used both transmissions depending on year and options.

Is it possible that different transmissions were installed at the factory than what is "supposed" to be there? Absolutely. It's also possible that a previous owner had a different trans dropped in to get the lower first gear.

I've had two different 85 F350's with the 10K GVWR and diesel engine. One was a pickup, the second a cab / chassis. Both had the "proper" synchronized, high first gear.

I'd love to be proven wrong, my hydraulics run off the drivers' side PTO port, but I could really use the lower first and reverse gears. My clutch really suffers backing cars into sloped driveways.

For practical purposes of maintenance and repair, it doesn't really matter what trans you have. Most repair manuals simply list the T18 and T19 together, they are really the same trans with different gears.

 

[towcat]

iirc the difference between the t18 and t19 was the fact that the t18 is the creeper 1st trans. I have one in my 85 in TX. It will be coming up for sale later on this summer since I will be putting in a ZF5 into the truck. also, if the rear is 3.55, chances will be good that you will find a creeper 1st in the trans.

 

[Mr_Roboto]

You may have something there.

I'm wondering if I could swap the guts from a gasser trans into mine to get the lower first gear, and still have the drivers' side PTO work? I have an old 82 gasser trans from a wrecked truck.

 

[sle2115]

My truck was originally a 3.55 truck, it does not have the creeper gear. It does have the T19 though with dual PTO ports and is stock. It now has 4.10s and first is still used. Second is all but too high to start out in on anything but almost flat, even with 4.10's, it really lugs the motor.

 

[towcat]

You may have something there.

I'm wondering if I could swap the guts from a gasser trans into mine to get the lower first gear, and still have the drivers' side PTO work? I have an old 82 gasser trans from a wrecked truck.

you might be able to swap out the guts as long as the input shaft gears mesh. the gasser/diesel input shaft is not the same.

 

[adrianspeeder]

Over on another site, (name unreleased), there was a debate that the diesels only came with a synchronized 4 sp not the creeper gear. I have a 1986 F-350 6.9 and a creeper gear 4 sp. Fairly certain it is the original tranny. Do I have a creeper because I have a factory "utility/ service body" truck rated at 10,000 lbs. or is it more likely it is a differant trans.?

The T-18 (non syncro first/reverse) and T-19 (syncro first/reverse) share the same ratios. There isn't a syncro non creeper used with anything other than a 302 (SROD/TOD) in a truck.

So I suggest you ignore the missinfo from "another site", and settle in for the straight info here

Adrianspeeder

 

[82F100SWB]

Both of mine are "creeper" first gears, the 460 has the 6.32:1 ratio set, with the same gear spread as a T18, the diesel has the 5.11:1 first gear, and first gear is not something I use that often in it.
Reverse in a T19 is most definitely not syncroed.
The major differences between a T18 and T18 are the bushing/bearings throughout the case, The 19 has bearings throughout, where the T18 has the normal bushing/bearing combination found in a light duty transmission.

As for gas VS diesel transmissions, the 4 speeds are 100% interchangeable, input shaft size, spline count and stickout are the same, heck, the 6.9/T19 uses the exact same clutch/pressure plate as a 460/T19 of the same year. My diesel is running what was the spare clutch for my 460 truck....

 

[Mr_Roboto]

I have two 85 F-350 cab / chassis in my driveway, I can assure you that the first and reverse gears are vastly different, with the gasser having MUCH lower gearing.

I was watching the speedo yesterday, I can run first gear out to 15 mph in the diesel. With the low first in a gasser, you're looking to shift by 2 or 3 mph. Many people will start in 2nd unloaded.

This is where I've been getting my written information, from this discussion it is obvious that there is no cut and dry correct answer (At least simply based on engine type). http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/t18_t19.htm

Here's something else I found, I do not know the original source.
NP435 gears: 6.68 3.34 1.69 1.00
T19 wide: 6.32 3.09 1.68 1.00
T19 mid: 5.11 3.03 1.79 1.00
T19 close: 4.02 2.41 1.41 1.00
T18 close: 4.02 3.09 1.69 1.00
T18A wide: 6.32 3.09 1.69 1.00

I'm going to go out in the morning and see if I can get transmission and axle codes off of my trucks, maybe we can do a comparison and see if there is correlation between axle ratio and first gear ratio.

 

[subway]

Mr Roboto those figures look right from what i have seen to, i did some research on it a while back when i wanted to put a heavy 4 speed in my jeep.

as far as i know the only difference between the 18 and 19 is that the 19 has first gear syncroed while the 18 is not. i think the inferior bearing thing is from the t-98 which was the predicessor to both the 18 and 19. i know the couple 18's i have had were roller bearings just like the 19 in my garage.

internals from all three as far as i know are interchangable as long as you match the gears mating together.

everything i have found to shows that the input shafts on the fords are all the same length and 10 spline count including the above and np435.
(been checking this out to see if i can swap my gasser np435 in with my diesel into my jeep). some of this information which i consider reliable has been found on advanced adapters and novak adapters websites.

as for the diesel having the creeper gear i don't think any of the 250 or 350 line did. novak does mention that the ford 500-800 series dump trucks did have the granny low but no other ford diesel apparently did, at least from the factory

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/t18_t19.htm

 

[85hauler]

I'm going to go out in the morning and see if I can get transmission and axle codes off of my trucks, maybe we can do a comparison and see if there is correlation between axle ratio and first gear ratio.

My '85 cab/chassis door sticker has trans code P and rearaxle code 65
My '86 460 4x4 has trans code P and rear axle code 39

I can't say for sure either truck has the original trans, but the '86 definetly has a steeper first gear than my '85

It would be nice to know a way to determine the trans ratios before pulling the trans at a wrecking yard. Is this info on the trans id tag?

 

[82F100SWB]

I've never had a T18 apart, but, that bearing/bushing bit did bode well with the 19 being rated for a significantly higher GVWR than an 18.

I can vouch for those ratios, outside of the T18 ones, never dealt with one of those. I have an example of each T19(have a 4.02:1 first one sitting in the shed beside 2 NP435's.)
My diesel has the 5.11:1 first gear, about 17 mph is tops for first, while my 460 has the 6.32:1 first, and at 3300, it's doing about 14 mph, same tire size, same axle gears(3.55.) My friend John had the 4.02:1 trans in his truck before he went ZF, and even with 4.10's, it'd do 20 in first, and don't think about taking off in second. Whereas with my diesel, second gear takeoffs are the norm.

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Well you brought up the third 4 speed option, the NP435. From what I can see, the NP is only available with smallblock 2wd or smallblock 4wd with a divorced transfer case.

"You can recognize the NP435 by it's single piece, aluminum, bolt-on top cover with the shifter sticking directly out of the top and a fitting on the driver's side for the back up light switch. Most have the letters "NP" inside a circle cast into the cover. The NP435 is sometimes hard to tell from the similar looking T18 or T19. One way to check is with a magnet, which won't stick to the aluminum top cover of the NP435. The NP435 also has the PTO cover plate on the passenger's side. Weight is approximately 120 lbs."

 

[82F100SWB]

The 435 was never offered behind a 460 or diesel, 83-86, both of them were only offered with the T19 behind them(the 460 was never offered with a 4 speed, or in a 4wd before 83.) The 435 did do duty behind the 351M/400, which carry the 385 series bellhousing, but, that's as close as it got. I've found that they are extremely common in 300 I-6 powered trucks vs the T18. They were used interchangeably per availability by Ford it seems though..