Hydroboost, air filters & ceramic coating

bike-maker

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I actually ran into the problem before I even switched to hydro boost.

My vacuum booster took a dump, and I had a spare vacuum booster and master out of an 89 that I tried to swap in. The connections for the brake lines are completely different, and I am remembering comparing the 89 standard MC and hydro MC and them being the same.

The 89 used 2 different sizes of fittings, where both on the 84 are the same.
 

LCAM-01XA

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Oh, that mess - fittings are still standard, just the nut for one is much larger in thread - kinda how on the rear axle both lines are 3/16" but at the hose one nut is your typical 3/16" size (3/8-24" thread) while the other appears to be the size of what you'd normally see on 1/4" line (7/16-24" thread). Both Ford and GM did that a lot, no way to assemble the lines incorrectly at the factory when the two nuts are blatantly different in size. Actually I'm pretty sure yours are different as well, they may both take the same wrench but the actual threads should be different (one 3/8-24" and the other 7/16-24"). Whereas the bricks and the F-superduty masters will run 9/16-18" on one and 1/2-20" thread on the other line IIRC. You should be able to get the reducers at any parts store, you may have to go in the back yourself and spend a while looking thru all the available ones tho.
 

bike-maker

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I'll have to do some more investigating; I'd prefer to be running the SuperDuty master cylinder
 

jaluhn83

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Regarding the larger master = more volume argument, it's not that's simple. A larger cylinder gives greater surface area, so you'll get less pressure for the same applied force, and greater volume displaced for the same travel. *But* with the different lever length caused by moving the pin you're getting a shorter stroke of the master for the same movement of the brake petal, and a greater force applied to the master for the same petal effort. How those factor balance out with the increased size of the master is what will affect the actual braking ability.
 

LCAM-01XA

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I'll have to do some more investigating; I'd prefer to be running the SuperDuty master cylinder
What are your plans for the combination valve on the frame, run it together w/ the valve on the hydroboost master? May end up w/ too low rear pressure then, but guess there's one way to find out for sure. IIRC someone on here once mentioned that the F-Superduty valve can be gutted so it only acts as an adapter fitting, may wanna look into that as well.
 

bike-maker

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Haven't dismantled the valve on a hydro master cylinder, but I did take apart the proportioning valve on the standard 89 master cylinder, and it can be easily gutted.

Then again, I may just leave it; the stock brakes worked just fine with the truck unloaded. The reason I did the conversion is due to coming about 2" from shortening a VW bus when the ******* decided to cut in front of me and make a panic stop when I had the 5er in tow. It now does a considerably better job of bringing my 18k pounds of junk to a halt...And I give the yahoos in front of me more room.
 

LCAM-01XA

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Haven't dismantled the valve on a hydro master cylinder, but I did take apart the proportioning valve on the standard 89 master cylinder, and it can be easily gutted.

Then again, I may just leave it; the stock brakes worked just fine with the truck unloaded. The reason I did the conversion is due to coming about 2" from shortening a VW bus when the ******* decided to cut in front of me and make a panic stop when I had the 5er in tow. It now does a considerably better job of bringing my 18k pounds of junk to a halt...And I give the yahoos in front of me more room.

And you already moved the pushrod pin higher on the pedal, correct? If so, leave things as is. Read Jaluhn83's post from yesterday and consider these three scenarios:

1) hydroboost master, factory pedal - starting from a stock system simply swapping to the larger master cylinder you lose mechanical advantage because larger masters make less pressure pers force applied. The volume pushed out per inch of stroke OTOH increases - the volume required to actuate your brakes is constant, so you need less stroke to get there, resulting in higher pedal.

2) factory master, hydroboost pedal - by moving the pedal pin closer to the pedal pivot you increase the leverage your foot has on the master cylinder, thus you have more apply force on the master that could be used to produce higher line pressure out of the factory master. You pay for this in pedal travel, the piston stroke does not change but the higher leverage requires you to push the pedal down further to make the same stroke at the master.

3) hydroboost master and pedal - this is the effects of #1 and #2 combined, and cancelling each other. The higher apply force by the modified pedal makes up for the increased piston area of the hydroboost master, and the master's shortened stroke makes up for the increased travel of the modified pedal. You end up with similar line pressure and pedal travel as before, only now the hydroboost linkage does not bind.

This is all with the engine shut off, and booster reserve charge depleted. The reason why hydroboost brakes make more line pressure at the brakes once engine is running is because (when compared to a vacuum booster) the hydroboost can ADD more force to what you provide thru the pedal and the pushrod. Modify your PS pump for higher line pressure, and the hydroboost can now add even more force. But shut the engine off and deplete the booster reserves, and they ain't all that different from one another.

You're currently at #2, you're making the highest line pressure possible but you're pay for it by having to push the pedal a bit further down. By swapping to the hydroboost you will get the shorter pedal travel, but your line pressure will drop - in other words you will get improved pedal feel, but you'll pay for it in lower line pressure, resulting in lower clamping force at the calipers and shoe-pushing force at the wheel cylinders. If you're OK w/ your pedal travel and feel now, leave the system be, you're already maxed out in what you can put down at the wheels.

Does that make sense? I can provide calculations if needed...
 

bike-maker

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Sounds good to me. Right now I can lock up all 4 35's at about 1/4 pedal travel with the truck unloaded. Haven't tried a full on panic stop yet with the trailer for fear of what will happen to all the dishes, clothes, food etc. that will get tossed around.

Something else that hasn't been brought up; IIRC the hydro master cylinder is a single reservoir, standard MC is dual reservoir. Which in my mind makes the standard safer in case of a blowout somewhere in the braking system.
 

LCAM-01XA

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bike-maker said:
Sounds good to me. Right now I can lock up all 4 35's at about 1/4 pedal travel with the truck unloaded. Haven't tried a full on panic stop yet with the trailer for fear of what will happen to all the dishes, clothes, food etc. that will get tossed around.
Strong cabinetry latches are your friend there, and you pack the cabinets heavy on the front (of the trailer) side - otherwise things take a flight and some don't survive the landing. Guess how I know that.

bike-maker said:
Something else that hasn't been brought up; IIRC the hydro master cylinder is a single reservoir, standard MC is dual reservoir. Which in my mind makes the standard safer in case of a blowout somewhere in the braking system.
The plastic tank is also dual-reservoir, it has a partition internally from the bottom of the tank to about 3/4 up towards the cap. It just looks like one big tank, but there are two compartments inside it, joined only near the top.
 

jaluhn83

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As far as piston coating (ceramic crown and moly skirts)........

Classic Coatings has the best price I've found and they seem to have a good reputation.

I wish I had found them prior to getting my balancing work done. If I had, I would have had them do my pistons in the 6.9.

Heath

What about this place?

http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/diesel-engine-coatings/diesel-coatings-price-sheet/

Not sure where I got their info from, but someone recommended them to me. Sounds promising, just very pricy!

For sure going to do the pistons (tops and skirts) and am thinking seriously about coating the turbo piping and housings. Seems like coating would help quite a lot with retaining heat up to the turbo and reducing radiant heat in the engine bay. Pricey though..... :dunno
 

jaluhn83

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Anyone got a source for the F-450 proportioning valve or a suitable adapter? My new master cyl came without one and I can't seem to find one listed for sale anywhere.....
 

jaluhn83

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Okay, the reducing valve or whatever it is that screws into the rear port on the master. What I have is a straight thread o-ring seal port and I understand there a reducer valve / proportioning valve whatever that screw into that port and in turn has a standard reverse flare brake line fitting.
 

LCAM-01XA

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Thread on the F-Superduty master is the same 18x1.5mm as that of the F150-F350 masters. Find a junkyard brick or OBS truck of the same GVW as yours, and pirate its valve. Tried looking up a 3/4-ton part # for ya, failed miserably - Tasca and the likes don't list even the master cylinder, let alone the valve itself.
 

jaluhn83

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Ok, thanks! Thought it was super duty specific but if not I should be able to find one easily. My an it to gut it and retain the stock prop valve.
 
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