Glow plug troubles

[Big Bart]

Jay,

Another thought, when you get your new gp harneses, check the resistance and write it down. That way if fixed you can see if the harness has degraded with time.

 

[Jay Krout]

I didnt get the chance to work on the rig...Jimbo left this world earlier this week...not havin a good week myself otherwise either

 

[Big Bart]

Jay,

I am sure you will get to it! The good news is you can still drive your truck in the meantime.

On a side note I am picking up some used Miller Welders on the cheap this week from a shop that is closing. (Syncrowave 180 TIG, 135 and 212 MIG, and a dail arch 250 stick.) If I have any issues with them, I may reach out for some ideas, or ideas of who to call for repair info and parts. Any good forum's for welding in general and/or Miller users? Any good online sites you use for consumables or parts, or do you mainly use a local brick and mortor?

 

[Scotty4]

Jay,

I am sure you will get to it! The good news is you can still drive your truck in the meantime.

On a side note I am picking up some used Miller Welders on the cheap this week from a shop that is closing. (Syncrowave 180 TIG, 135 and 212 MIG, and a dail arch 250 stick.) If I have any issues with them, I may reach out for some ideas, or ideas of who to call for repair info and parts. Any good forum's for welding in general and/or Miller users? Any good online sites you use for consumables or parts, or do you mainly use a local brick and mortor?

TIG stuff has come a long way. CK Worldwide has excellent parts at good prices. But there are some smaller guys making custom stuff like FUPA cups and the like. There are a couple forums I've used in the past but not part of amy so cant recommend. Miller parts are easy to come by thru Praxair, AirGas, and the like. Just expect gas solenoids to go on the machines, and depending how new, the cards. They're not made to last anymore but thats with some pretty heavy use. Might geg lucky with longevity as a hobbyist.

 

[Jay Krout]

Jay,

I am sure you will get to it! The good news is you can still drive your truck in the meantime.

On a side note I am picking up some used Miller Welders on the cheap this week from a shop that is closing. (Syncrowave 180 TIG, 135 and 212 MIG, and a dail arch 250 stick.) If I have any issues with them, I may reach out for some ideas, or ideas of who to call for repair info and parts. Any good forum's for welding in general and/or Miller users? Any good online sites you use for consumables or parts, or do you mainly use a local brick and mortor?

weldingweb.com...there is a forum there. some very knowledgeable people there and there are different sections just like here for different brands Lincoln Miller Hobart and so on. Some very good fabricators and welders on there too who can answer lots of questions.

Most of my consumable stuff for my wire feeder and such I get at Praxair they are just over the mountain from me...well ...just about evrything is just over one of these mountains here...not much is here except deer rabbits groundhogs and the occasional bear. Some other stuff like gouging tips for my torch I find on ebay, the only place you can find the old airco or concoa torch tips anymore for gouging. The Best Weld brand and Goss gouging tips aint worth a puddle of p#$s the copper in em is junk. Airco or Concoa is the only ones worth having

The fella up above me here mentioned that the newer welders dont hold up so good...he is probably right...most all Ive ever used the past 50 years is engine drives and most of them were older than me. They held up good and welded like a dream. I couldnt tell you much about the shop welders that run on electric power...one that I did use and absolutely fell in LOVE with was an old Lincoln torpedo type welder, 600 amp beast as I recall. It was in a flood and they asked me if I could fix it...it would run but it wouldnt weld. So one Saturday I got there about 3 am and I took it all apart and wiped evrything down...about 4 in the afternoon I had it all back together and plugged it in...I got a very long stick, hid behind a column and pushed the button. When that ol girl lit up it made a helluva racket but the racket was all nice and smooth no rattles or anything like that so I let it run a bit and dug up some weld lead and a ground clamp and got my stinger out the truck. I shut her down ahooked up the leads and dug out some scrap and went over to my workbench. I put her through the paces for about 3 hours all different sizes and types of rods...any position you can dream up...she never missed a beat. I took my first weld tests with that ol girl and passed and she was my girl the whole year I worked there. The roar that she made and Steppenwulf at 90bajillion decibels is probly why I cant hear a damn thing today.

But yeah weldingweb.com is a good forum...look up Popeye an old miner...thats me and tell em I said hello if you sign up.

Have a great day

Popeye

 

[Big Bart]

Gents,

Thank you for the heads up. I still see some Lincoln torpedo's once in a while but always think they will break due to age or I won't be able to find the parts. But maybe I need to pick one up on the cheap and try it out.

These Miller welders I am picking up look to be around 10-12 years old.(They have some older ones but I only have so much room for tools.) Upside is they are a good price, 220V single phase so I can use at home, they are working, they are Miller, and I am not going to run the all day 5 days a week. So guessing they will go the distance for my limited needs. I currently have a Lincoln 180 MIG and a Eastman TIG (Which I have yet to use.) so will have back ups if needed.

Looking forward to leaning how to do some TIG welding. I have done my share of stick and a fair amount of MIG, but yet to do TIG.

We have some body work to do next summer on my son's car so will put the Miller MIG's to the test. May try out the TIG, seems like some prefer doing TIG for quarter panel replacement/repair.

 

[Big Bart]

Most of my consumable stuff for my wire feeder and such I get at Praxair they are just over the mountain from me...well ...just about evrything is just over one of these mountains here...not much is here except deer rabbits groundhogs and the occasional bear.

Jay,

I might have to invite myself over for welding lessons and a deer hunt this fall!

 

[Jay Krout]

Well.....I guess I replaced just about evrything there is to replace on this glow plug system...new harness from the relay to the plugs, new hot wires from the big ugly plug on the side to the relay, new relay and controller, new glow plugs. I thought maybe the one of the lug nuts on the rear passenger side dualies was loose so I tightened it up that didnt help either. (That was a joke, I gotta find some stupid humor in this).

So I guess Im gonna find the best and safest way to bypass this controller/relay busness with a push button switch. Thge only other thing I can think of is there might be somethin goin on the other side of the big ugly plug and I am not gonna get into that rat nest. All the number came up the same this last go around, I spent all night last night til 3AM putzin with this thing went to work for 12 hours today and messed with it some more tonight and there is no change...the light blinks once and the controller clicks a nice steady beat and I know it aint supposed to do that.

Im over it, now I wanna find the best and safest way to go around it and make it work.

 

[Jay Krout]

Gents,

Thank you for the heads up. I still see some Lincoln torpedo's once in a while but always think they will break due to age or I won't be able to find the parts. But maybe I need to pick one up on the cheap and try it out.

These Miller welders I am picking up look to be around 10-12 years old.(They have some older ones but I only have so much room for tools.) Upside is they are a good price, 220V single phase so I can use at home, they are working, they are Miller, and I am not going to run the all day 5 days a week. So guessing they will go the distance for my limited needs. I currently have a Lincoln 180 MIG and a Eastman TIG (Which I have yet to use.) so will have back ups if needed.

Looking forward to leaning how to do some TIG welding. I have done my share of stick and a fair amount of MIG, but yet to do TIG.

We have some body work to do next summer on my son's car so will put the Miller MIG's to the test. May try out the TIG, seems like some prefer doing TIG for quarter panel replacement/repair.

I never did no tig welding, I had the chance to learn it when I was a kid but bein the macho fella that I was if I wasnt gettin sparks in my belly button I wasnt weldin. I burnt maybe a million tons of 7018 rods from 3/32 all the way up to 1/4 with my old Lincoln pipeliners rebuilding buckets, dozer blades excavator buckets and whatever else broke or wore out in the mines, now I use mostly Innershield a self shieded wire on my wire feeder, or occasionally some dual shield wire if Im in a shop and that dont happen much. I never did much MIG weldin, but I can do it. MIG wont work on the stuff I work on, it was tried many times, but it dont work to good especially on the AR plate we use on the buckets.


If you do get one of those old Lincoln torpedo types buy some good earmuffs you will need em. Hobart used to make the same type of machine, they ran good too

You are welcome here anytime to go huntin in the fall, but its a long way from California to Pennsylvania

 

[chillman88]

find the best and safest way to go around it and make it work.

The two small contacts on the relay. One is ignition power, the other is a ground provided by the controller.

Safest and easiest way is to use a momentary pushbutton to ground that contact when you're pushing it.

 

[Big Bart]

Jay,

It’s not for a lack of trying, but I get your point, time to move on to bigger and better. Upside is your glow plugs and harness are new and will serve you well.

Watch this video again. If the red wire is hot when your key is on or in start position. (Recommend you test for 12v positive.) Then all you have to do acording to him is add a ground wire (- 12v) where the white wire is and hook via a momentary push button (Or a toggle switch that only stays on while you hold it on.) and it should start the glow plugs till you release. Perhaps just use a jumper wire to confirm he is right.

So you can hook one end to anything metal in you cab, go to a momentary switch, and then run a wire to the post with the white wire.

I would not put a flip switch, if you forget to turn it off you will smoke your glow plugs and likely your new harnesses. Some have caused a electrical fire leaving their glow plugs on.

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I wish I was close, I would have come over weeks ago to help.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[Jay Krout]

Thanks fellas, I appreciate all the help, I dont know if its going to happen this weekend or not, I heard earlier this morning I might be having a very long weekend doin some work at a breaker, a lot of demo work a bunch of bullriggin and a bunch of weldin to get them up and runnin again for next Monday morning.

Right now I got to get some sleep. I will probly have a question or 2, maybe 3 or 4 who knows Im no electrical **** kid. BUT...yeah I know I dont wanna use a toggle switch.

Tomorrow is another full day of work so you all have a great day tomorrow


Popeye

 

[Jay Krout]

I saw that video before, pretty much what I figured. I did find this

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There is a pretty detailed article with it. It includes hookin up the wait to start light wire with it.

Questions

#1 what size wire should i use for this? Im thinkin 10 gauge (Im the guy that thinks bigger is always better)

#2 I would like to put an inline fuse on this and was wondering where to put it, unless you dont think its needed.

#3 Im assuming that the wires that got cut off would not be reattached to the relay...just tape them up or insulate them somehow...correct?

This will probly happen this weekend unless I get another job like last weekend...that breaker job was a ball buster and wore my bony ass out. Lotsa demo work, climbing around, and down and up and pulling chain falls and comalongs and droppin stuff down and then pullin the new pieces back up and installing it and then 14 continuous hours of welding. I gotta tell ya this ol boy was one tired old dog by sunday night.

You all have a great day time for me to go to work.

Ps I dont know how this picture here came up twice...Bart thank you much as far as not bein able to come over to help out, it aint a problem ...would be nice would like to meet you but bein at other ends of the country dont work out so good

 

[Big Bart]

Jay,

I am a little confused by the wiring diagram. But it appears to work. So let me explain how I would tackle. First to answer your questions.

1) Wire guage, 10 guage will work if you want to go big. But 12 might be easier to work with.

2) The fuse is only needed if your plan is to supply 12v positive to the relay. I believe you can rather just supply 12v negative and let the factory wiring supply 12v positive.

3) As I recall all wires can be removed because they have eyelet connectors on them. Might I suggest you unhook them and the tape them vs cutting them off. That way you can re-use the system down the road or for a newer replacement truck. I would leave the engine wait light wire on too so when you push the button you know the relay is getting energized. Not sure you have to cut it like your diagram but you will know by looking where it hooks to.

The glow plug controller is two parts. The black part on the bottom controls when and how long to turn on the relay. The top part with 4 posts is a basic relay. You will only need to use the relay part to bypass.

The top of relay part has 4 posts.
1) You need the batteries to give one big post 12v positive. When the relay energizes it delivers power to the the other big post and thus to the glow plug harnesses.
2) One little post needs 12v pos and the other needs 12v negative to energize and thus connect the two big posts together sending power to the glow plugs.

So to bypass the controller you use the two small posts on top of the relay. One gets 12v pos and the other gets 12 neg from the battery. You could achieve this several ways.

On caviat is we don’t know if your relay actually works, you never did get the glow plugs working with the new controller
/relay. So testing will prove it is working.

But the way I would use to bypass is via the 12 neg side of the relay.-

1) I would test to see per the video if one of the small posts gets power (12v pos.) with the key on. If Yes then continue.
2) Then I would add a grounded jumper wire to the other small post and that should energize the relay and start the glow plugs. You can check for power at a glowplug connector. (Key in on position.)
3) Wait 10 seconds and remove the jumper wire and try to start your truck cold. (No block heater.) Make sure the glow plugs are working and the truck starts. If not, hooking a switch is not going to fix your problem.
4) If the glow plugs worked and the truck started. I would wire up a bypass switch Which gives 12v neg to the side of the relay you just jumpered.

Install and Advantages.

1) To wire up the push switch you can just screw or bolt the start of your wiring to any metal object that is grounded. (Firewall, floor board, dash support, steering colum support, etc.) Run that wire to one side of your push button switch. The beauty is you can put your switch just about anywhere and still find a ground nearby.
2) Run a second wire from the push button switch to the small post on the relay that you jumpered that takes the 12v neg.
3) Because the factory wiring is supplying 12v when the truck is in start or run, it is already a fused 12v positive. So no need to add a fuse.
4) Doing it this way means you do not have to figure out how to get 12v pos off your fuse box either.
5) Your relay will only work when your key is on. So grand kids, knees, arms, lunch pales will not turn on the glow plugs unless the truck is turned to on or start. Less chance of burning up your glow plugs or starting a fire in the engine compartment.
6) The new wire from the switch to the glow plug relay will not short out over time. Being 12v neg if the plastic coating chafes off it will not short out on anything it touches like metal or plastic.

If you prefer you can run a ground to one small post and power to the other small post anyway you want, just seems like more work to deal with 12v pos wiring.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[chillman88]

Jay,

Mine is done exactly like the diagram. All that added switch is doing is triggering the relay. I don't know for sure what gauge I'm running but it's either 14ga or 16ga. Really doesn't take much juice to power the relay.

You do need to splice the WTS light if you want it to work correctly. That light is constant ignition power and is grounded by the controller when your plugs are running. I didn't realize that and tried feeding it from the glow plug wire and it was on constantly until I pushed the button and then it went out. Confused me until I realized what I had done!

So yes, switched ground from that terminal. No need for a fuse because the power circuit is fused. Although... I don't think it could HURT anything if you put a fuse inline.