Dead lift pump?

[dirtbiker]

Hey guys,

Sorry to post again, but I'm having yet another issue. I had the truck running pretty well (as some of you may have seen my video), it started right up and everything no problem. Well, today I took all of the masking off from painting and decided it needed some fuel (and I wanted to drive it). So I jumped in, cycled the glow plugs and she fired right up like normal. Went to the station, filled up with DIESEL, came home and parked it. A few hours later, I was hungry so I decided it would be a good time to drive it again. Cycle the glow plugs, didn't want to start. So I hooked up my jumper cables to the other truck and eventually got it running, and I thought it seemed okay. So I got in it and was driving it around the block to see if it was alright and boom it just quit right in the middle of the road. Wouldn't restart, though it would hit every now and then like it was going to. By now the batteries were drained, so I went and got the other truck and a buddy and we dragged it back. I put it on charge when I got back, let her sit for a few hours and tried again. It started, but it still sounded "hungry" as if it wasn't getting ample fuel. Then it died and wouldn't start again.

I have gone through and replaced the starter, injection pump, and all of the glow plugs (and controller). My question is if a lift pump fails, will it do so suddenly? Could this be my problem? Or does it sound like I got a faulty IP?

Thanks guys, and sorry again to keep posting.

Edit: There is fuel to the schreder valve when cranking, so I guess that rules out the lift pump. What the heck though, it's a new IP.

 

[justinray]

Another thing to check would be the connections to the IP, the FSS requires constant voltage or it will die, so maybe your losing connection there

 

[dirtbiker]

Another thing to check would be the connections to the IP, the FSS requires constant voltage or it will die, so maybe your losing connection there

Forgot to mention that I checked, and the FSS does have power.

 

[riotwarrior]

You mentioned it's a NEW IP, but neglected to mention where from. Maybe it's faulty? Maybe it's got a heat soak issue I don't know.

Sounds strange but if you have Fuel shooting from Schrader it's not the lift pump.

Have you tried a different Fuel filter? It is possible it picked up some Schmeg and needs changing? Don't forget to fill it with ATF prior to installing it either!

 

[icanfixall]

Well as posted already. If fuel comes out of the filter bleeder then its not the lift pump. Filling a tank might have mized up some crap and now the filter is plugged up. But you should see the filter dash lite come on too if thats a problem. If some crap got past the fuel filter it may have plugged the injection ump screen too and now the pump is starving for fuel. Lets not go there just yet. Plenty of other things to be answered. Like where did the pump come from and who built it is a good question. If you bought it from an ebay seller located in Tenn.. Well, you have been screwed big time. So please tell us where the pump was from and why did you install it on this engine if it was off another engine that was sitting around.

 

[dirtbiker]

You mentioned it's a NEW IP, but neglected to mention where from. Maybe it's faulty? Maybe it's got a heat soak issue I don't know.

Sounds strange but if you have Fuel shooting from Schrader it's not the lift pump.

Have you tried a different Fuel filter? It is possible it picked up some Schmeg and needs changing? Don't forget to fill it with ATF prior to installing it either!

I ordered it from pep boys, it was rebuilt by BWD and it is a Standadyne DB2. The fuel filter is pretty new, but I guess checking it won't hurt.

Also, I had driven it a few times with the new pump on it for a few miles each time and gotten it warmed up and nothing happened out of the ordinary.

Well as posted already. If fuel comes out of the filter bleeder then its not the lift pump. Filling a tank might have mized up some crap and now the filter is plugged up. But you should see the filter dash lite come on too if thats a problem. If some crap got past the fuel filter it may have plugged the injection ump screen too and now the pump is starving for fuel. Lets not go there just yet. Plenty of other things to be answered. Like where did the pump come from and who built it is a good question. If you bought it from an ebay seller located in Tenn.. Well, you have been screwed big time. So please tell us where the pump was from and why did you install it on this engine if it was off another engine that was sitting around.

The tank is brand new (replaced a few months back, and has had nothing but diesel in it). As stated above, I got the pump as a new rebuild from Pep Boys and it was rebuilt by BWD. I wish I could get one of Mels pumps, but I don't have the funds for it right now so this will have to do. The pump has a 3 year warranty as well, so I figured why not (it was about $300 out the door because I had a coupon as well).

 

[justinray]

Hold on... Just got diesel, right before this happened. Now I believe you in the fact that you pumped from the diesel pump. But maybe you caughta bad batch? Water? Gasoline? Subpar Diesel? Just a Swag.

 

[dirtbiker]

A bit further explanation: It was being driven through a neighborhood, and the temperature here in Chicago was hovering around the 100 degree mark. Though the engine did not overheat (either on the gauge, or on the mechanical gauge), it just "died", as though the FSS was disconnected, although it was not. I know that any part can fail prematurely, but want to be a bit more sure before pulling the pump off and getting a replacement. I would expect that a Borg-Warner re-manufactured pump would be a reasonable quality proposition, but again, when they are mass producing them, things happen. Can the excess heat cause something like the "vapor lock" we used to see in carbureted gas engines? Is there anything else we should be checking? I guess it is a good thing we have yet to rent Gary's timing light, as we may have to change the pump again? Thanks to all for your help and commentary.

 

[icanfixall]

No chance of a vapor lock issue with our diesel. A cheap idea is to run a jumper hot wire to the top of the injection pump large connecter called the fuel shutoff solenoid. Its cheap and simple. Now with this positive hot wire holding open the solenoid try starting it. If it comes to life your probably having ignition switch intermitent peoblems. Once the engine runs with the jumper wire there is only one way to shut down the engine and thats remove the hot wire to the pump. Its kinda odd to have to do that but it will work till you can reset the ignition switch or replace it. They do wear out and stop functioning. The switch has several positions. The first click is the usual run position. Then when you twist it farther to start the engine omly the ignition switch sends power to the injection pump and the starter solenoid. All over electrical items have no power.

 

[dirtbiker]

Then if it is cranking over good, compression is 400 psi (we checked last week), fuel is being delivered to the IP (or at least is spraying out the scraeder valve), the timing was right (or at least CLOSE as of yesterday), it really should start. The FSS "clicks", but could it be stuck shut somehow inside? We haven't changed the fuel filter yet (we have the only Auto Zone in this county that doesn't stock this filter), but aside from that, what else can it be? We seem to have ruled out air intrusion when we were having problems getting it to run a week ago. Is the FSS very sensitive to voltage? I DID find out that my battery charger was bad and only putting out 11 volts, so the system (ie battery) voltage is low. Any other suggestions? Thanks for all of your help!

 

[icanfixall]

Battery voltage is critical to a good spinning starter. Do you have a gear reduction starter. Clean terminals is doubley important. Run the hot jumper wire to the injection pump solienoid. That solenoid will run with 7 volts being supplied to it. On top of the injection pump is the return line check valve. Its the black fitting in the top. Its got a rubber o ring sealing it. Remove it and try to blow thru it from the pump to the return lines. Use a dentel pick or a tooth pick to presss open the valve and spring from the pump end of said valve. They usually don't stick cloed but it can happen. The solenoid presses it open for fuel to return to the tanks. When the power it removed from that solenoid it shuts the check valve and the engine dies because the fuel in the pump can't get out of it. Kinda a funny way to shut down a diesel but it works well.

 

[dirtbiker]

New (rebuilt) Mitsubishi gear reduction starter, pair of new 950 CCA batts (not fully charged, to be sure), new 2/0 cables all around, new (rebuilt) ip and injectors. We will check that valve, too. How about gas tank venting? When we went to the Amoco station to fill it with Diesel, there was a significant suction on releasing the fuel cap. Since this is a conversion from a gasser, and we used the top tank vent to run the return line, I wonder if the lift pump might have a hard time pulling against the "closed" fuel system? Just a random thought.

Thanks,

 

[vegas39]

If the fss is clicking, then I would say it was fine. I'm guessing either bad fuel, or a bad injection pump. I've seen gas stations with the wrong fuel dumped into the underground tanks, do you by chance smell gasoline in the tank? How about air getting in somewhere?

 

[lindstromjd]

How about gas tank venting? When we went to the Amoco station to fill it with Diesel, there was a significant suction on releasing the fuel cap. Since this is a conversion from a gasser, and we used the top tank vent to run the return line, I wonder if the lift pump might have a hard time pulling against the "closed" fuel system? Just a random thought.

Thanks,

That might be your problem right there. It's supposed to be a vented system. Get a vented cap and see what happens. Or just take your cap off and see if the problem goes away.

 

[dirtbiker]

Alright guys, so I let the batteries charge over night so they were fully charged this morning. I then bled the lines, loosened the gas cap and cycled the glow plugs. Moment of truth, and she fired right up. I'm thinking that it died while I was driving because it couldn't pull any more fuel with the gas cap not venting. Although I guess it is possible that I got a bad pump that only malfunctions when hot... But I've had it hot before and nothing happened like this.

The reason the venting issue just now became a problem is that I just replaced the vent hose, which was badly cracked before... So before, it was venting through the cracked hose and not having a problem. Now that I replaced it, there's nowhere to vent, so it just makes a vacuum I guess. I'm just glad I thought about the gas cap thing, or I would've been tearing out the IP and lift pump pretty soon.