Bonded or riveted brake shoes?
- Thread starter Cubey
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Black dawg
Registered User
most of the napa shoes have a core charge.
i dont overly worry about it but i have had a couple of bonded brakes come apart, one set was still in the box.
these were all your run of the mill big chain parts stores. sounds like you have it figured out.
these were all your run of the mill big chain parts stores. sounds like you have it figured out.
jaluhn83
Full Access Member
Quality is far more important than how it's attached. Crappy riveted lining can be just as useless as crappy bonded, and a well made bonded shoe will work just as well.
raydav
Full Access Member
Drum brakes are out of sight and out of mind. The brass rivets will contact the drum long before the lining is gone. Those brass rivets will silently carve groves in the drum deep enough that the drum cannot be saved by turning it.
My IDI is a 9K# dually. The bonded rear brake shoes are from NAPA, about $60. I can lock the rear wheels any time I chose - not that you should, I am just saying that they work.
Since most of us also have pads, there are a couple things to consider. I have a 2001 E350 with four wheel disks. The first pads I put on it chattered when hot. The next set faded. The current set is Ford, that don't do either of the previous things but don't stop very well any time.
Pads now have a two letter friction rating printed on them. The first letter is friction force when cold and the second letter is when hot. FF is about as good as you will generally find available. This is something I just learned at AAPEX 2019. So far I have not found a retail seller that knows the code exists.
My IDI is a 9K# dually. The bonded rear brake shoes are from NAPA, about $60. I can lock the rear wheels any time I chose - not that you should, I am just saying that they work.
Since most of us also have pads, there are a couple things to consider. I have a 2001 E350 with four wheel disks. The first pads I put on it chattered when hot. The next set faded. The current set is Ford, that don't do either of the previous things but don't stop very well any time.
Pads now have a two letter friction rating printed on them. The first letter is friction force when cold and the second letter is when hot. FF is about as good as you will generally find available. This is something I just learned at AAPEX 2019. So far I have not found a retail seller that knows the code exists.
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I missed out on the heavy duty ones I wanted from Amazon for the cheap price, and news today said amazon isn't allowing any non-medical/home goods shipments to their warehouses, so i screwed myself on that good deal. Who knows when they'll have them again at the $32 price. 
RockAuto is still an option for those exact shoes, but they'll cost $8 more due to shipping.
I'm in a crap mood right now due a thankfully minor (not vehicle rated) thing that happened just a bit ago, but still a big stress boulder none the less. This just piles on more anger/frustration to the point I almost just wanna go back to bed for the rest of the damn day.
RockAuto is still an option for those exact shoes, but they'll cost $8 more due to shipping.
I'm in a crap mood right now due a thankfully minor (not vehicle rated) thing that happened just a bit ago, but still a big stress boulder none the less. This just piles on more anger/frustration to the point I almost just wanna go back to bed for the rest of the damn day.
From what I can see, all riveted end in "R" in the part number.
Napa's offerings:
TS TS314 - NAPA Proformer Brake Pads/Shoes - $27.49
FLT FT314 - Fleet Brakes - $35.49
FLT FT314R - Fleet brakes - $69.99
UP UP314R - NAPA Ultra Premium Brake Parts - $61.99
O'Reilly:
BrakeBest 358 (Bonded) - $31.99
ACDelco 14314R - $58.99
ACDelco 17413R - $79.99
Dunno what the big difference is between the two ACDelcos, but the cheaper one is under "economy" on RockAuto, while the other is under "Daily Driver". Both are riveted though.
It seems only the cheapest shoes are bonded, so I'd have to get the cheapest.
I think I might get the cheap Autozone 358 bonded shoes for $32. They have a lifetime warranty, and it has 4 good reviews, one on an F350 dump truck and another on an 83 F250 that pulls a gooseneck trailer. Yeah it would suck if they are junk and I have to change them, but... riveted ones online could fail too... and I'd have almost no recourse with them. At least I can walk into any AutoZone and get a replacement set. I'd probably have to buy a second set first, change the shoes, then exchange the bad ones for a new set; and just have 2 sets of shoes. Unless I can get away with leaving the thing on jack stands in an AZ parking lot when I walk in to exchange the shoes for new ones mid-way through replacement.
https://www.autozone.com/brakes-and...rear/duralast-brake-shoes-358/351718_380423_0
Napa's "FLT FT314 - Fleet Brakes - $35.49" only have a 90 day warranty. Nope, not gonna do that. Oddly enough, the cheaper $27.49 "Proformer" ones have a 1 year warranty.
If I am gonna buy bonded at retail, I might as well get lifetime warranty ones.
O'Reilly's bonded is another lifetime warranty choice which might be better, due to way more locations: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/.../1985/ford/e-350-econoline?q=brake+shoe&pos=0
I decided to order the Raybestos 314PG on Amazon for $29. I think they're bonded, but I'm not sure. They're under "daily driver" on RockAuto, and they have the most reviews on Amazon of the brake shoe size I need:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CPIH9E/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The advantage is FREE RETURNS, if I end up changing my mind, or if they're damaged right out of the box.
I also ordered a left side ratcheting nut for $19, which is $6 cheaper than O'Reilly. It's also free returns, but I don't see that it'll need to go back. To get it's free shipping, I had to order something, so the brake shoes made sense. I won't pay for Prime unless I really need something that's really hard to get fast from other sources.
The ratcheting nuts are listed for Dana 80, and AutoZone even says it fits "motorhome", so I don't see how they should be a problem on mine. I just need to be sure of what torque value they need. My F-series and E-series books only menton them for Sterling axles, set to 55-65 ft lbs then back off 5 clicks for new bearings, or 8 clicks for used bearings.
The info I'm finding online for the ratcheting nut for D80 use says to torque to 70 ft lb while turning the hub, back off 90 degrees, and re-torque to 18 ft-lb. I'm 99% sure that's correct. My source of that info:
https://www.thedieselstop.com/threads/dana-80-axle-bearing-torque.170365/#post-1369175
For the two-nuts and tabbed washer between setup on D70, Chilton says 50-80ft lbs for the "bearing adjusting nut" when turning the hub, back off 3/8 turn, install the tabbed washer, bend tabs to hold the adjusting nut in place, then install the lock nut and torque to 90-110ft lbs. (Then bend more tabs to hold that in place)
So really, the bearings getting torqued to about 70, backed off and locked with washer nd outer nut. So... 70, backed off, then retorqued to 18 for a ratcheting nut sounds right to me.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CPIH9E/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The advantage is FREE RETURNS, if I end up changing my mind, or if they're damaged right out of the box.
I also ordered a left side ratcheting nut for $19, which is $6 cheaper than O'Reilly. It's also free returns, but I don't see that it'll need to go back. To get it's free shipping, I had to order something, so the brake shoes made sense. I won't pay for Prime unless I really need something that's really hard to get fast from other sources.
The ratcheting nuts are listed for Dana 80, and AutoZone even says it fits "motorhome", so I don't see how they should be a problem on mine. I just need to be sure of what torque value they need. My F-series and E-series books only menton them for Sterling axles, set to 55-65 ft lbs then back off 5 clicks for new bearings, or 8 clicks for used bearings.
The info I'm finding online for the ratcheting nut for D80 use says to torque to 70 ft lb while turning the hub, back off 90 degrees, and re-torque to 18 ft-lb. I'm 99% sure that's correct. My source of that info:
https://www.thedieselstop.com/threads/dana-80-axle-bearing-torque.170365/#post-1369175
For the two-nuts and tabbed washer between setup on D70, Chilton says 50-80ft lbs for the "bearing adjusting nut" when turning the hub, back off 3/8 turn, install the tabbed washer, bend tabs to hold the adjusting nut in place, then install the lock nut and torque to 90-110ft lbs. (Then bend more tabs to hold that in place)
So really, the bearings getting torqued to about 70, backed off and locked with washer nd outer nut. So... 70, backed off, then retorqued to 18 for a ratcheting nut sounds right to me.
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raydav
Full Access Member
You mentioned D80. Are you working a D80 or D70. Both my E350s have D70 bus rear ends.
You CAN over tighten tapered roller bearings. You are adjusting it cold, it will warm and expand a bit.
If you have ratcheting nuts, you have better control if you have a proper wrench. Both mine use a spanner.
I use a short handle wrench and tighten as much as I can with one hand while rolling. That is probably not over ten ft-lb. That aligns the bearing with the race. I then gently back it off until trying to move the top of the wheel in and out I feel a slight bit of play, and then re-tighten until the play is just gone while rolling.
On my bus I once had a wheel shear all eight, 9/16 studs. I got it to a Loves, and a big rig mechanic helped me repair it. He put a dial indicator on the wheel and adjusted for 0.001 inch play.
I mention D80 because it's just as heavy duty as the D70 I have. I was saying if it's good enough for a D80, it's good enough for a D70.
I have the 3/8" and 1/2" of HFT torque wrenches and I trust them. I always set them back to the minimum like the instructions say so they don't stretch out the internals and I keep them in their plastic cases. I've had 'em for around 8-10 years at this point. I have rebuilt the front ends on both a Dodge 1 ton van and my F250 with them and nothing ever came apart. I also used one for the ratcheting nut on my F250's ful floating Sterling 10.25" 3 years ago and I never lost the wheel or bearings, so I must have done it right. I used the 1/2" one on my E350's RV's front lug nuts too when I did the brake pads last year. Never had any come loose, nor feel like I was tightening them to much. They take a good amount of force to come loose. It has the two piece swivel lug nuts.
Oh and since the thread got bumped anyway, I'll mention it now. I ended up canceling the order for Raybestos 314PG shoes and the ratcheting nut. Amazon is understandably quite slow to ship stuff right now, so they hadn't shipped yet.
Reason being, a $20 credit owed to me on ebay finally came through and I was able to buy the nut there for 48 cents (due to the total being $20.48 w/tax). In addition, my original choice of heavy duty brakes shoes are back in stock on Amazon, so I ordered those instead.
They are riveted, but they are heavy duty rated and they only cost ~$4 more. People were saying he 314PG are riveted too when I asked on Amazon. So I saved a bit of money out of pocket on the nut by using the $20 credit and got the heavy duty shoes I actually wanted.
Reason being, a $20 credit owed to me on ebay finally came through and I was able to buy the nut there for 48 cents (due to the total being $20.48 w/tax). In addition, my original choice of heavy duty brakes shoes are back in stock on Amazon, so I ordered those instead.
They are riveted, but they are heavy duty rated and they only cost ~$4 more. People were saying he 314PG are riveted too when I asked on Amazon. So I saved a bit of money out of pocket on the nut by using the $20 credit and got the heavy duty shoes I actually wanted.
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