FS-2500 bypass filter system
- Thread starter FoolhardyIDI
- Start date
79jasper
Chickenhawk
I used to have a video from them on that exact system.
IMO, any extra filtration is a good thing.
Personally, I like the systems that replace the factory filter.
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IMO, any extra filtration is a good thing.
Personally, I like the systems that replace the factory filter.
Sent from my SM-T537R4 using Tapatalk
CDX825
filtration nut
Check ebay. I see them on there all the time for way cheaper.
If I had to do it all over again I would probably get a Fleetguard LF777 and run it.
Bypass filtration is a good thing though if used properly.
If I had to do it all over again I would probably get a Fleetguard LF777 and run it.
Bypass filtration is a good thing though if used properly.
idiabuse
Full Access Member
If it was worth putting on any vehicle then the big 3 would of put them on all vehicles, RIGHT?
79jasper
Chickenhawk
Lol kinda like egrs, dpfs, junk air boxes that lest dirt/dust in.
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direwulf23
Full Access Member
Amsoil has a bypass that retail for ~$400 and it replaces the factory filter and adds another filter besides. I am a bit partial to Amsoil myself. I also THINK an oil bypass is a good thing.
idiabuse
Full Access Member
many manufactures produce bypass filtration. because it is such a unknown to the majority you can usually find a bypass filter for real cheap.
Mine cost me $0.00 because it was so old the guy handed it to me.
all you really need is the filter mount, usually on sale on ebay for less than $50 and the filter, less than $50
the plumbing cant cost much because how much are brass fittings and 1/4 safety hose?
Which one is the best? well the one that is already mounted on your truck and filtering your oil...
Mine cost me $0.00 because it was so old the guy handed it to me.
all you really need is the filter mount, usually on sale on ebay for less than $50 and the filter, less than $50
the plumbing cant cost much because how much are brass fittings and 1/4 safety hose?
Which one is the best? well the one that is already mounted on your truck and filtering your oil...
PwrSmoke
Full Access Member
Bypass systems are a good thing but they don't pay for themselves in the short term. They are best considered a oil life extender versus an engine life extender. The difference in wear between using a bypass system and "normal" maintenance oil change intervals is pretty small and the benefits come way, way down the road. Like getting 400K miles vs 300K. In a scenario like that, most people are trading in or selling (or junking a worn out truck carcass) with a great engine in it. Pays off for long term owners. So from the wear standpoint, the bypass is a bit more icing on the cake.
Where the bypass system will pay for itself is in oil life extension. Contaminants in the oil slowly build up and as they do, the additive package in the oil is worked harder and eventually depleted. Wear metal taxes the anti-oxidants, soot taxes the dispersants the buffering compounds are taxed by the acids that form from combustion gasses, fuel, etc. Lots more to it than that but there's the gist. The cleaner the oil stays, the less stress there is on the additives and the longer it stays actively in service. The contaminants themselves, wear metal and soot when it agglomerates (bunches up) can cause wear once the concentrations in the oil reaches a moderately high level and the bypass system deals with it on that level as well. Some bypass systems (those with cellulose based filter media) can also absorb significant amounts of moisture and moisture is part of the process of acidifying the oil.
How far can you go with a bypass setup? Depends on the combination of the oil used and the bypass system. In theory, you can go nearly forever if you periodically change filters and add some oil to bolster the additive package. You would need to monitor with regular oil analysis to be sure of oil condition. My favorite combo is to use a conventional oil, like any of the $3-4/quart oil, and run it out to 15-20K. I've done that several times on my gasser and when I ran the one out to nearly 20K, I tested the oil and it was still suitable to use. I could easily have gone out to 25K and that was on $3/qt oil but I wanted to use a different viscosity oil. I have a Racor 3um (3 micron) bypass on my '86 F-250 truck (same on the 5.4L gasser) now and it's just passing 8K on the fill I installed when I overhauled the engine in 2009 (no, I don't drive it much). I had oil analysis done a couple of times over that interval, and a particle count done about 18 months ago, and the oil was still in really good shape. I'll probably run it out to 10K, which would come up in another year or so. The Racor has a cellulose flyer that absorbs moisture. If interested, google "Racor ABS" bypass system.
The bottom line, though, you are wasting your money on a bypass if you don't extend your oil change interval to at least 3X normal (normal being a 5K interval). Crunch the numbers yourself: get the price of a normal oil change and factor that against a 15-20K run and the cost of the bypass system. In my calcs, the system didn't start paying unless I ran 15K. Again, the wear aspect is inconsequential unless you stretch it out over decades of use and multiple hundreds of thousand of miles.
Where the bypass system will pay for itself is in oil life extension. Contaminants in the oil slowly build up and as they do, the additive package in the oil is worked harder and eventually depleted. Wear metal taxes the anti-oxidants, soot taxes the dispersants the buffering compounds are taxed by the acids that form from combustion gasses, fuel, etc. Lots more to it than that but there's the gist. The cleaner the oil stays, the less stress there is on the additives and the longer it stays actively in service. The contaminants themselves, wear metal and soot when it agglomerates (bunches up) can cause wear once the concentrations in the oil reaches a moderately high level and the bypass system deals with it on that level as well. Some bypass systems (those with cellulose based filter media) can also absorb significant amounts of moisture and moisture is part of the process of acidifying the oil.
How far can you go with a bypass setup? Depends on the combination of the oil used and the bypass system. In theory, you can go nearly forever if you periodically change filters and add some oil to bolster the additive package. You would need to monitor with regular oil analysis to be sure of oil condition. My favorite combo is to use a conventional oil, like any of the $3-4/quart oil, and run it out to 15-20K. I've done that several times on my gasser and when I ran the one out to nearly 20K, I tested the oil and it was still suitable to use. I could easily have gone out to 25K and that was on $3/qt oil but I wanted to use a different viscosity oil. I have a Racor 3um (3 micron) bypass on my '86 F-250 truck (same on the 5.4L gasser) now and it's just passing 8K on the fill I installed when I overhauled the engine in 2009 (no, I don't drive it much). I had oil analysis done a couple of times over that interval, and a particle count done about 18 months ago, and the oil was still in really good shape. I'll probably run it out to 10K, which would come up in another year or so. The Racor has a cellulose flyer that absorbs moisture. If interested, google "Racor ABS" bypass system.
The bottom line, though, you are wasting your money on a bypass if you don't extend your oil change interval to at least 3X normal (normal being a 5K interval). Crunch the numbers yourself: get the price of a normal oil change and factor that against a 15-20K run and the cost of the bypass system. In my calcs, the system didn't start paying unless I ran 15K. Again, the wear aspect is inconsequential unless you stretch it out over decades of use and multiple hundreds of thousand of miles.
idiabuse
Full Access Member
! WHAT? so contaminates in the micron ranges from 20 on down to 0 micron do not damage engines in the short term? ! You are SO BUSTED!
A study of twenty-two (22) 6-cylindar diesel engines performed by Fodor & Ling (affiliated with the Research Institute of Automotive Industry-Budapest and the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute)
FINDINGS: Reducing contamination from 0.016% by weight (standard oil filter) to 0.0025% with an extended filter, reduced engine wear by a factor of 14. Most significantly, friction was reduced by 2.9% when operating with clean oil. This fraction was equated to an increase in fuel economy of up to 5%. As a comparison, this significantly exceeds the 0.6 - 0.9% fuel economy gained experienced when converting from SAE 40 to multi grade lube oil.
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http://kleenlube.com/sae_tests
Samples of 138 engines operating with standard paper filter were compared to 117 engines operating with upgraded 10-micron filters.
Based on the relationship between dynamic oil film and size of wear generating particles, the most important particle size range is 0-10 microns.
Diesel engine lube oil contamination causes wear of engine components. Wear of these components leads to loss of performance, increased maintenance and overhaul cost, lower fuel efficiency, and shorter lube oil service life.
Last edited:
PwrSmoke
Full Access Member
You are (likely deliberately) misinterpreting what I said. Or maybe you just don't understand as much as you think you do. Besides, we basically agree that bypass filtration is "good." My contention is that the ROI (return on investment) is NOT always good and you need to evaluate that before spending the money. If a bypass system make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, go for it, but if you haven't evaluated the ROI, you can't make a logical argument in favor.
NO!: 20um and down do not damage the engine significantly short term! Of course, it depends on your definition of "short term." If short term is 200K miles, the minimum average life of a maintained light duty diesel engine, then you are right. But that's not what most people would call short term. Wear is based as much on the contaminant levels as it is on the particle sizes. In other words, a small concentration of 20 um particle causes less wear than a large one. Plus, contaminant levels are not static. The engine starts out with clean oil and the filter takes out everything within it's absolute filtration capacity (and a percentage of particle smaller) and then the levels slowly build up of the contaminates below that threshold. It's really a contest between the contamination inputs versus what the filter can take out. If you air filtration system is good (the air intake is where about 85% of all particulate contamination in the crankcase comes from) and the engine doesn't have any mechanical problem, contamination input from normal wear is actually quite low. But eventually, over a highly variable period of time, contamination levels rise and reaches a place where wear increases to the point where the oil should be changed. Wear increases on a curve as the contaminates built up. Significant wear, may only be occurring over a relatively small period of time at the end of the oil change interval. That's part of what oil change intervals are all about. Also remember that filtration efficiency increases as the filter loads up and the big pores are closed, so the filter actually does a better job, the longer it's in service
Don't quote advertising where the results are cherry picked to sell product. To honestly argue the point, you need to see the actual tests, not rely on exaggerated sales pitches. I have seen the actual tests. Those tests and many other are short term and done by filling the oil with a slurry of test dust to artificially raise the contaminant levels. I have one of the actual SAE tests cited in the ADVERTISEMENT you cite as PROOF, which cost me $22 by the way. I have 881825 and I have many others, which I also paid for (SAE tests are copyrighted) that are similar. In 881825, the contamination levels were artificially maintained at high levels of particles in the various sizes (10 GRAMS of contaminates added every 30 minutes, 50 grams total and the test duration was only 8 hours.. the oil filters were changed when they became plugged, which they did several times). OF COURSE wear was higher with a crankcase full of 20 um particles than with a crankcase full 10um or 7um (which is as small as they went) but these are not conditions that are real world. What this 1988 test did was simply to verify that wear was was greater the larger the particle size (like DUHHHHH!) and it was a bit of a push to get the industry to improve the average filter efficiency. In truth, these tests are not the least bit real world because who dumps 50 grams (nearly 2 ounces) of test dust into their oil or allows that much crud to enter their engine. Averaging several industry sources, the average passenger car filter collects 4-5 grams of contaminants over 7500 miles and that's about 1/3 the capacity of an average oil filter and about 25% of a high capacity premium filter. I don't have stats for diesel engines, but they would be somewhat higher because of soot. Still, the capacity of an FL1995 is like 30-40 grams, so if it filled up to 50% over the OCI, that would be 15-20 grams... which is a LOT less than the 50 grams poured into the engine for tests. Plus, remember the contaminant curve above.
You said:
"Based on the relationship between dynamic oil film and size of wear generating particles, the most important particle size range is 0-10 microns.
Diesel engine lube oil contamination causes wear of engine components. Wear of these components leads to loss of performance, increased maintenance and overhaul cost, lower fuel efficiency, and shorter lube oil service life."
Basically it's all true but you need to put into into context and balance the cost vs the benefit. That's something sales pitches and hypesters like you often fail to do. You are totally focused on the wear aspects that don't provide any benefits until way, way down the road (versus simply changing the oil the normal way). If you are a guy that puts 30K a year on his rig, or more, you might gain something from the decrease wear because your engine is likely to wear out before the truck. Those of us who put less miles on, well, the truck is a rusted out wreck with a busted chassis long before the payoff comes. As I said, the payoff comes from the oil life extension. I continually scratch my head with guys that buy boutique oil, premium filters, bypass systems and STILL change their oil at 5K. INCOMPREHENSIBLE! And a total waste of oil and money. Anybody like that, send me your oil! I'll use it in my equipment without hesitation!
NO!: 20um and down do not damage the engine significantly short term! Of course, it depends on your definition of "short term." If short term is 200K miles, the minimum average life of a maintained light duty diesel engine, then you are right. But that's not what most people would call short term. Wear is based as much on the contaminant levels as it is on the particle sizes. In other words, a small concentration of 20 um particle causes less wear than a large one. Plus, contaminant levels are not static. The engine starts out with clean oil and the filter takes out everything within it's absolute filtration capacity (and a percentage of particle smaller) and then the levels slowly build up of the contaminates below that threshold. It's really a contest between the contamination inputs versus what the filter can take out. If you air filtration system is good (the air intake is where about 85% of all particulate contamination in the crankcase comes from) and the engine doesn't have any mechanical problem, contamination input from normal wear is actually quite low. But eventually, over a highly variable period of time, contamination levels rise and reaches a place where wear increases to the point where the oil should be changed. Wear increases on a curve as the contaminates built up. Significant wear, may only be occurring over a relatively small period of time at the end of the oil change interval. That's part of what oil change intervals are all about. Also remember that filtration efficiency increases as the filter loads up and the big pores are closed, so the filter actually does a better job, the longer it's in service
Don't quote advertising where the results are cherry picked to sell product. To honestly argue the point, you need to see the actual tests, not rely on exaggerated sales pitches. I have seen the actual tests. Those tests and many other are short term and done by filling the oil with a slurry of test dust to artificially raise the contaminant levels. I have one of the actual SAE tests cited in the ADVERTISEMENT you cite as PROOF, which cost me $22 by the way. I have 881825 and I have many others, which I also paid for (SAE tests are copyrighted) that are similar. In 881825, the contamination levels were artificially maintained at high levels of particles in the various sizes (10 GRAMS of contaminates added every 30 minutes, 50 grams total and the test duration was only 8 hours.. the oil filters were changed when they became plugged, which they did several times). OF COURSE wear was higher with a crankcase full of 20 um particles than with a crankcase full 10um or 7um (which is as small as they went) but these are not conditions that are real world. What this 1988 test did was simply to verify that wear was was greater the larger the particle size (like DUHHHHH!) and it was a bit of a push to get the industry to improve the average filter efficiency. In truth, these tests are not the least bit real world because who dumps 50 grams (nearly 2 ounces) of test dust into their oil or allows that much crud to enter their engine. Averaging several industry sources, the average passenger car filter collects 4-5 grams of contaminants over 7500 miles and that's about 1/3 the capacity of an average oil filter and about 25% of a high capacity premium filter. I don't have stats for diesel engines, but they would be somewhat higher because of soot. Still, the capacity of an FL1995 is like 30-40 grams, so if it filled up to 50% over the OCI, that would be 15-20 grams... which is a LOT less than the 50 grams poured into the engine for tests. Plus, remember the contaminant curve above.
You said:
"Based on the relationship between dynamic oil film and size of wear generating particles, the most important particle size range is 0-10 microns.
Diesel engine lube oil contamination causes wear of engine components. Wear of these components leads to loss of performance, increased maintenance and overhaul cost, lower fuel efficiency, and shorter lube oil service life."
Basically it's all true but you need to put into into context and balance the cost vs the benefit. That's something sales pitches and hypesters like you often fail to do. You are totally focused on the wear aspects that don't provide any benefits until way, way down the road (versus simply changing the oil the normal way). If you are a guy that puts 30K a year on his rig, or more, you might gain something from the decrease wear because your engine is likely to wear out before the truck. Those of us who put less miles on, well, the truck is a rusted out wreck with a busted chassis long before the payoff comes. As I said, the payoff comes from the oil life extension. I continually scratch my head with guys that buy boutique oil, premium filters, bypass systems and STILL change their oil at 5K. INCOMPREHENSIBLE! And a total waste of oil and money. Anybody like that, send me your oil! I'll use it in my equipment without hesitation!
idiabuse
Full Access Member
yea it sure is not for everyone!
I have been assembling and disassembling engines for 25 years.
just recently I tore down a 400ci Chebbie engine built in 1972
never been apart and low and behold the engine was a ball of grease
on the outside. I figured just like all the rest it would be all tired on the inside.
! to our suprise that damned thing looked damned good on the inside.
Clean clean clean! the bearings were original and not scored, no sludge except on the
bottom of the pan.
Now with that said there was no history on this engine. so 100,000 miles? who knows?
but basically in general most engines I breakdown are in poor health from the lack of
care.
I have personally used bypass filters since 2004 and the results will get this thread locked
in short order.
I like that you pull up a test that pours dirt into a engine for testing. I guess that is how most
oilburners treat there idi's
Yea my truck is worthless but my drive train to me is worth every dollar I invested.
I dont plan on buying a newer truck so my investment of a bypass setup is very valuable to me.
After all my truck travels about 25,000 miles a year and I have owned it for 16 years.
It did take a 5 year break to build my idi twice but my previous findings with a bypass setup
was worth the added effort to me every time my oil analysis came back.
I have not done a 5,000 mile oil change since 2002 so I don't subscribe to those who cannot focus
on lab result's.
When I put my truck on break I tore the engine down to repair a scored cylinder and this was the 'inside
of the engine when I cracked it open after a very very very long time on pure oil change interval neglect.
I am sure you have seen these pictures before, I think I have posted them here before.
If you wiped your finger on the engine valley or the oil pan your finger would still be clean.
I have been assembling and disassembling engines for 25 years.
just recently I tore down a 400ci Chebbie engine built in 1972
never been apart and low and behold the engine was a ball of grease
on the outside. I figured just like all the rest it would be all tired on the inside.
! to our suprise that damned thing looked damned good on the inside.Clean clean clean! the bearings were original and not scored, no sludge except on the
bottom of the pan.
Now with that said there was no history on this engine. so 100,000 miles? who knows?
but basically in general most engines I breakdown are in poor health from the lack of
care.
I have personally used bypass filters since 2004 and the results will get this thread locked
in short order.
I like that you pull up a test that pours dirt into a engine for testing. I guess that is how most
oilburners treat there idi's
Yea my truck is worthless but my drive train to me is worth every dollar I invested.
I dont plan on buying a newer truck so my investment of a bypass setup is very valuable to me.
After all my truck travels about 25,000 miles a year and I have owned it for 16 years.
It did take a 5 year break to build my idi twice but my previous findings with a bypass setup
was worth the added effort to me every time my oil analysis came back.
I have not done a 5,000 mile oil change since 2002 so I don't subscribe to those who cannot focus
on lab result's.
When I put my truck on break I tore the engine down to repair a scored cylinder and this was the 'inside
of the engine when I cracked it open after a very very very long time on pure oil change interval neglect.
I am sure you have seen these pictures before, I think I have posted them here before.
If you wiped your finger on the engine valley or the oil pan your finger would still be clean.
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
PwrSmoke
Full Access Member
I DIDN'T, YOU DID. You posted an advertisement that was supposed to bolster your point about bypass filtration. It cited three SAE tests, 881827, 881825 and 95255 and included a few selected snippets from them. I happened to have the full SAE 881825 test here (which I bought for $22). I have a whole bunch of other filtration tests and most of them do the same thing, pour test dust into the engine and measure wear. I have conferred with tribologists and filter engineers about this methodology and they back up my opinion (rather I back up theirs: The methodology only offers limited useful results. From the other side, instead of testing an engine for months or years on a dyno or hundreds of thousands of mile, you can get it done in eight hours. More useful is long term oil analysis and particle counts.
FWIW, I was a professional ASE certified master tech, with factory training from Ford, Porsche and Land Rover. I never counted how many engines I've done, but it's likely near or over a thousand. I had a sideline business in the '70s rebuilding air cooled VW engines and there had to be hundreds of those before I decided I wanted to have some free time and stopped.
When I tore my engine down after a massive head gasket failure, my engine was sterile inside too...and that was before I had bypass. Normal oil changes do the job too. In 140K miles, the bearings were suitable to be reused and the bore had only 0.001" taper or less. It doesn't take a bypass system to achieve long life.
We can agree on a few things at least... the value of a properly interpreted oil analysis for one. But that's a vital part of the extended oil change game anyway. I did it before as well and could have probably done 8K OCIs without the bypass system on based on analysis.
idiabuse
Full Access Member
So how do you feel about the added cost in a shorter interval drain using lets say a WIX 1734XE filter over the standard 1734?
FoolhardyIDI
Full Access Member
My only knowledge about the Wix 51734 filter is that is filters down to 21 micron. It also flows 28-30 GPM of oil.
idiabuse
Full Access Member
Well would it be of any interest why WIX decided to offer a better quality 1734? What would posses a company to spend the time and effort to offer a high efficiency filter
over their standard filter? I can tell you it is not because they sell more of them!
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