Changed IP, now have bad mileage, Please advise.

[olddesertrat]

Update:

1. Got the fuel lines loosened and advance IP.
2. Engine ran worse and always lots of white smoke.
3. Tried timing again....however got erratic RPM and strobe flashes.
4. Cleaned all contact points on pulse inducer.
5. Noticed fuel line had some grooves were the pulse pickup was placed.
6. Sanded paint and rust off another area on fuel line and hooked up pulse pickup.
7. Now strobe and RPM steady.
8. Read timing now at 20 ATDC...

Guessing my previous reading of 43 degrees BTDC was wrong because of bad pickup location and/or bad electric contacts.

Have to loosen fuel lines every time to move IP. Too late today, will have continue Sunday.

Side note: How well does the stock Tach work on your trucks? Asking because my tach is very slow to move. At 500 idle or 1000 rpm, truck tach is still "0".
Is this normal or is my tach bad. Where is the tach pickup located on truck and is it adjustable?

Later

 

[riotwarrior]

Update:

1. Got the fuel lines loosened and advance IP.
2. Engine ran worse and always lots of white smoke.
3. Tried timing again....however got erratic RPM and strobe flashes.
4. Cleaned all contact points on pulse inducer.
5. Noticed fuel line had some grooves were the pulse pickup was placed.
6. Sanded paint and rust off another area on fuel line and hooked up pulse pickup.
7. Now strobe and RPM steady.
8. Read timing now at 20 ATDC...

Guessing my previous reading of 43 degrees BTDC was wrong because of bad pickup location and/or bad electric contacts.

Have to loosen fuel lines every time to move IP. Too late today, will have continue Sunday.

Side note: How well does the stock Tach work on your trucks? Asking because my tach is very slow to move. At 500 idle or 1000 rpm, truck tach is still "0".
Is this normal or is my tach bad. Where is the tach pickup located on truck and is it adjustable?

Later

I would utilize the tach on the timing light. NOT the truck tach.

Wow, sounds to me like there is something completely out of whack here...I mean way out of whack.

if you cannot load pictures to OB site, get a photobucket account, then copy the IMG tag from image into thread and pictures appear!

Keep us informed and thank you for the update.

 

[olddesertrat]

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Absolutely can not use truck tach riotwarrior. Truck tach has never worked for low RPMs as long as I owned it. Does not really kick on until around 2,000 rpm....which makes me wonder is higher rpm are accurate. Will check that later today with timing light tach. Wondering if this is normal for f350 tachs, or mine needs to be adjusted or replaced.
In another post talked about putting more timing marks on truck and readers wanted to know why that was needed with adjustable timing lights.
Bought the Innova 3568 because read about it on other threads here. Now using it, there is either a problem with mine, or this timing light is not really useable for diesel timing needs. Why? Because the advance up works fine, one degree per button push. The advance down is strange. Common sense say for down adjustments meter should read -# or maybe little BTDC display by #. It does not. One click down changes displayed degrees from 0 to 90. More clicks will decrease 90 by one full number per click. Will check later today if one click down actually moves -10 degrees, or just one degree.
All vehicles to my knowledge time to BTDC. maybe Innova thought all vehicles would have 0-10 BTDC marked on vehicle, so any adjustment of 10 BTDC or less user would just use "0" adjustment on timing light. Really do not care what Innova thought, their BTDC display readings are screwed up.
So for accurate timing adjustment, will do math and make my own timing reference tape for 0-10 BTDC.

At moment have no idea what photobucket is. Will research it and try to get photos up.

Later

 

[mohavewolfpup]

If you want, email me the photos and i'll post them for you

 

[riotwarrior]

www.photobucket.com

create an account, upload images, copy the IMG tag and post in thread...it's all I use ever.

I've used the innova lights and done so on my friend Bigredcrew's diesel and compared readings to my meter and they work great!

Our engines with pulse time BTDC and Luminosity proble is ATDC about 2 deg max but don't quote me on that one ok cause I'm not familiar with Lumi method, however I do plan to learn, and compare and do a review of all methods in time no pun intended.

We are here happy to assist however we can.

btw riotwarrior at gee mail dot com gets you directly to me if I can help further!

 

[olddesertrat]

Update:

Summary: Starting to believe something is wrong with this IP's internal timing.

Retarded IP timing as far as it slots will go....and still coming up 3 degrees ATDC. Truck runs much smoother and the exhaust smoke is gone. That is good, however timing is still wrong.

1. Do know for certain that IP gear and cam gear are aligned. Will show that if I can ever get pictures posted.
2. The tach and timing light flashes are very stable. So do not think problem is with pulse inducer or timing light.
3. Did timing at 1400 rpm, which seems to be most recommended timing rpm for 6.9L engine. Damper timing mark also very stable at 1400 rpm.
4. At 1400 rpm on timing light, truck tach reading around 800 rpm.

At this point, ready to pull off this Pensacola Diesel injection pump and put the old one back on.
Too burned out working on truck now....will replace IP in a few days. Will check compare truck tach vs timing light tach over full range later.

Did create an account at photobucket.com and loaded the photos. Copied the photo link and pasted into the URL option for loaded photos. when click okay, get error message error: invalid file.

While can load yet load photos directly, have been able to link to photobucket account. I can see the photos, please let me know if you can see photos by clicking on this link....http://s895.photobucket.com/user/rodksmith/media/P1010003_zps864b61b6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

 

[olddesertrat]

Riotwarrior: Does your Innova light also read "90" degrees with one click negative adjustment? Is "90" = 1 degree BTDC or 10 degrees BTDC? Eventually will get to using BTDC adjustments and want to do it right. The manual with meter says absolutely nothing about "90" or what it means.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

And thanks for hint. Was trying to copy link info, switched to "copy image location" now the photos show up.

 

[TahoeTom]

Your first photo shows tach pickup. The nut with wires on the IP gear cover is the pickup. It isn't adjustable. Maybe try removing and cleaning the inside. There are no moving parts.

 

[olddesertrat]

Okay, so that huge nut with two black wires on IP gear cover is my truck tach pick up. Guess it is magnetic pickup and somewhere on IP gear there is a magnet imbedded.
Thanks for info TahoeTom. Will try removing and cleaning. If that does not work, maybe replace sensor.

 

[icanfixall]

The tach sender is the magnetic pickup. there is no magnetic spinning magnet on the gear. It reads off every tooth of the injection pump gear. Both the cam and injection pump gears have the same amount ot teeth too. As for the timing marks you posted. Those really are meaningless for timing the engine. The only time they mean anything is when the original pump is installed at the factory and timed. I can't say anything good about the Pensacola pump. They are listed in the Hall of shame and they got there by how they do business rebuilding pumps. We have a member that needed 4 pumps from them till he got a keeper. That speaks volumes... Your comment about you know the gears are timed correctly. How do you know this. you gave no pics or reasons. This information may help with your issues. Thanks for the pics too.

 

[olddesertrat]

Hello Icanfixall: Love that name, wish I had thought of it!!

IP gear to Cam gear timing: In post #29 talk about making new tools for aligning gears. Very simple, thin layer of plumbers puddy pressure onto end of flexible metal ruler. Puddy and ruler much still be thin enough to clear 1/8" gap between gears and front plate. With gears set in place, slide puddy/ruler down into housing and press against gears. The impression on puddy is middle picture of post #37.

You must be registered for see images attach

As can be clearly seen in impression, the two "Y" marks are aligned. This gives my direct, idiot proof way of knowing gears are correctly aligned before installing injection pump.
Do understand now that timing marks between two different pumps are meaningless. Because timing is different between two different pumps...that tells me that internal alignment of injection pump parts is NOT idiot proof....internal alignment can be different, causing overall timing of pumps to be different.
However.....Internal part alignment should be close enough that BOTH pumps can be correctly timed by rotating the pump.
My problem now is that my Pensacola pump has been rotated to maximum timing retardation...the bolts are against the side of slots, and am still at 3 ATDC.
I can go no more.
My conclusion is Pensacola diesel re-assembled this pump outside of Ford factory tolerances and needs to be replaced.
Will put on my original pump in next days and see how timing goes.

 

[riotwarrior]

Riotwarrior: Does your Innova light also read "90" degrees with one click negative adjustment? Is "90" = 1 degree BTDC or 10 degrees BTDC? Eventually will get to using BTDC adjustments and want to do it right. The manual with meter says absolutely nothing about "90" or what it means.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

And thanks for hint. Was trying to copy link info, switched to "copy image location" now the photos show up.

First I have absolutly no idea what those two pics are of, and how they relate to the thread topic...

Second the factory IP timing is just that...set once at factory, each pump is slightly different and can be problematic by aligning but tis a good starting point none the less.

Now onto the Inova light, I don't own one I said I used one to work on Bigredcrew's truck. He has one, we set it quite easily but that was late last year. we compared it to the Kent Moore J33300 I have and his J 33300A and timing tape. All showed about the same! +- a wee bit...the timing meters where within a 1/10th of a degree of one another, timing light was showing 9 deg tape 9 deg +- a wee bit again...slight fluctuation as with any timing lights..but nothing to worry about.

Hope that helps.

Get to know your tools, #1

I'm still not convinced your IP gear and CAM gear are spot on mind you.

JM2CW

Keep us apprised

 

[olddesertrat]

Hi Riotwarrior: Yeah know little confusing because was late getting photos posted. Check Post #41 above. The puddy on ruler and little probe described in post #29. Puddy on ruler is fast, simple and idiot proof way of directly verifying "Y" marks on gears are aligned correctly. Your earlier suggestions about using "T" rulers and pin alignment also work, and used those to double verify alignment.
Thought of little probe 1st...used it to "feel" the location of "Y" mark. Then thought of making puddy impression...which is much better.
The 1st picture just shows factory timing marks where I started. Which, I know now when using different pumps is really meaningless.
Hope that helps.

 

[Knuckledragger]

I won't belabor the current topic, but have to say that I am impressed with your ingenuity on using putty to pick up the alignment marks on the gears. You never said whether or not the paint method was accurate, unless evidence was gone before you could verify.

Good luck getting the project finished.

 

[TahoeTom]

My problem now is that my Pensacola pump has been rotated to maximum timing retardation...the bolts are against the side of slots, and am still at 3 ATDC.
I can go no more.>
Maybe I'm dyslexic, but ATDC IS retarded. You need to rotate the pump to pass side to get BTDC. The marks on the side of the pump are not factory timing marks. The factory one should be at 12 o'clock on top of pump and gear cover. From what I remember from some of Mel's posts, most pumps are close to proper timing (as a starting point) when the lines are offset slightly toward advance, ie pump mark is to left of gear cover mark by dimes thickness when viewed from front of truck. I started at that for mine and when checked with a light was at 6 BTDC, so still needed more advance.