New design head gaskets/Spacers/Shims, Studs, and Timing

[rwilles]

I've contacted 7 different companies.
(Have a new contact in Thailand that I was forwarded. I've had problems with 3rd world production. Kinda hard to get a guy to make good on something if he lives in the shop with the hand cranked bellows and an old fashioned anvil. I'm probably biased but will run it down.) Only two companies are interested at this time.

The first conclusion we have to come to is how we want to approach the problem. Shims that work with a gasket or one piece gaskets? Either one should allow for doubling the turbo pressures...a variable h35 sized turbo that could net as much as 450 hp and 750 foot lbs of torque?! (stupid grin)

There are two approaches right now:
#1 is the guy in England who suggested spacers or shims. Because the block and head are cast iron a copper shim is the preferred approach this may be a higher quality (less trial and error) approach because extra thickness that is built into a gasket to seal anti-freeze and oil passages is just passed through to the copper. It is more expensive from Europe.

#2 is a completely new design for a gasket that has the extra thickness we need to moderate compression. Best Gaskets has experience with problem Turbo Diesel engines and would produce a gasket with a double fire ring. Their price seems really great. We could get a first run of 50 sets including the 'die and tool work' for about $200 per set. Sets after the initial group would be $120 per set... seems like a steal but there would likely be fine tuning problems as they are a brand new product made from a double thickness gasket material.

Read through the attached info and post your vote for the solution and why.
There is a lot more knowledge and potential out there than we are putting to use right now.!

See you all tomorrow!

 

[rwilles]

I don't think MLS will work. It is noted in many places that the manufacturers wants no more than .002" out of square between the block and head over a 21" head and a honed surface on both block and head. It's possible we have more flex in the block than that on an 18 year old + engine and it would always leak when there is power applied. It would only potentially work with a complete rebuild including decking and honing block and heads and I'm told many decking machines leave a groove on each pass that is greater than .002". I think carbon fiber is a much better option.

Check out Victor-Reinz commercial web site and the pdf- http://www.reinz.de/pictures/39-00330-01_CHG-Commercial-Vehicles-e-lowA4.pdf

They are using carbon fiber to gasket OEM engines with a ratio of:1 liter:50hp:100ft/lbs of torque. This is my target and gets a 7.3 engine at ~375 hp and 730 ft/lbs. The HP ratio goes up with electronic fuel injection. Not a crazy amount of power compared to other turbo diesel engines. Hypermax uses a carbon fiber for up to 500+ hp in a Powerstroke motor.

They don't use garloc-helioflex it on the OEM machines why should we need it? It seems out of the picture as rings are in the $50 per price range and a die would have to be made to fit them into our weird shape. The link from powerstrokenation says they spent $12k in trying to get them to work and it was all junk piled. And then it's not at the thicknesses we need to decompress. Would you pay $1000 for head gaskets? Everything is possible all it takes is money. It sounds like the helio-flex is a once a year break down the engine solution. Not for me...

 

[typ4]

copper shim is not a good choice. it will soften and fret. that is why a 3406b cat uses a stainless shim for the headgasket to sit on, more dimensionally/thermally stable.

 

[Brimmstone]

I personally like option two. Yes, there might be issues in the beginning. I would personally be willing to risk it on a couple of my engines as long as A-The gaskets could be made to work with a 6.9 block, B-If there are problems with the initial gaskets they will replace the gaskets gratis.

Your supplier whoever we go with needs to understand that the people who will be buying this first initial run are very competent mechanics. Just my rough estimation by what I know of the people posting in this one thread there is over 150 years of mechanical experience.

I understand this will be a learning curve but when I spend 200 for a set of gaskets if they go out within the first 12 months I expect them replaced. I can live with yanking the engine back out, and tearing it down to send off the gaskets for inspection to find and correct the problem.

 

[88 Ford]

copper shim is not a good choice. it will soften and fret. that is why a 3406b cat uses a stainless shim for the headgasket to sit on, more dimensionally/thermally stable.

I actually had that same idea about the shim a few days ago too.

What was that type of gasket you posted somewhere before Russ? I don't remember where is saw it...

 

[rwilles]

New message from: armin | goofboard [email protected] (BestGasket)

Robb, sorry about the wacky phones.

Double layer leakage – a worthy concern. The only experience we have a 2-layer gasket is with Flathead Fords. The two customers who tried it reported back with no leaks. Can I guarantee there will be leaks on your engines? No, I cannot. But, I am willing to make one pair initially to try out. If there are leaks, we will do our best to find a solution.

Antifreeze channels – Silicone beading around these areas is an option. Our graphite facing material may seal it without the rubber.

All other questions - I thing the best way to proceed is to get a Victor sample gasket so I can see it first hand. Do you have one to send me? If not I will buy one.

Armin Brown

From: robb willes [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:25 AM
To: armin | goofboard
Subject: Re: FW: 6.9, 7.3 idi turbo diesel (ending 1994)
robb willes

Were the Flathead Fords normally aspirated? My understanding is those engines were very low compression motors. The anti-freeze would still be 1 atmosphere though.

I do have a set of gaskets but it is probably fastest to order 1 through auto-zone. Mine are opened and can't be returned.

Another suggestion as solution has been made to use a stainless shim like a Cat over the road Turbo diesel and the V-R gasket.

 

[rwilles]

7.3 - 6.9 engines. The V-R gaskets are the same, made for both engines. The shims would be made to match, i would think. Don't know any advantage in designing separate gaskets or shims. Someone who has had both motors apart.. what do you think?

 

[rwilles]

Seems this company in Thailand is for real:

http://www.gasketstogo.com/
and here is their example page:

http://www.gasketstogo.com/examples.htm

They are consulting with: http://www.sealinfo.com/

So right now we have two companies working on the best solution for a new head gasket.

 

[rwilles]

Any one have a used gasket to send?

Msg from Gaskets-To-Go

10:15 AM (12:15am his time)

Hi Robb,

Thanks, I took a look at the picture, but it is only a silhouette and doesn't allow me to see any detail. I am sure that we can make something that would replicate the ROL gaskets in the thickness you require and at a competitive price, nothing like what you have mentioned to date, but I would need to see one of those in order to make sure we know what is required. I could then provide you with firm pricing. I could make up a pair or two for your evaluation before you proceed with a larger order. It can be a used gasket as long as it is not in too back a shape. If that is agreeable to you, please visit my page at www.gasketstogo.com/mailing.htm to find shipping info and labels you can download. Best method is USPS Priority Mail, do not ship via UPS or Fedex, etc.

Regards,

John
www.gasketstogo.com


If not I will send the new V-R gasket I bought.

Thanks All!

 

[ocnorb]

I just pulled my motor apart and the headgaskets are coming off in one piece; but they are delaminating badly. When I get home I will post a picture of them and you can tell me if they will work.

 

[ocnorb]

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[typ4]

pretty normal for oem gaskets

 

[typ4]

I actually had that same idea about the shim a few days ago too.

What was that type of gasket you posted somewhere before Russ? I don't remember where is saw it...

corteco and they got bought out by enginetech.

the cat head shim is thin enough to slice your thumb to the bone, on the meaty side.

 

[FordGuy100]

corteco and they got bought out by enginetech.

the cat head shim is thin enough to slice your thumb to the bone, on the meaty side.

Sounds like that's spoken from experience

 

[idiabuse]