Intake manifold holes, and starting problems- need opinions.

[MadMac]

@Big Bart, @IDIBRONCO, @The_Josh_Bear & others et al...

First, can't be grateful enough for everyone's thoughtful and good advice. I've spent the last few weeks trying to find and remove the 3/8 inch tip which broke off and dropped right in. I've learned a lot about what can and cannot be done *after* the GP tip has dropped into the cup, and much more likely - into the cylinder itself.

If you are a newbie to this space and broke one off I'll get right to the point - you will NOT get the damded thing out, and unless the engine cost/benefit is negative - stop right now and pull the heads. Either yourself - or pay to get it done. The practical "this might work" of all shopvac methods - is highly unlikely. If your endoscope can't see the tip INSIDE the cup - just stop. Worse than that - you're more likely to push the tip into the cylinder than to retrieve it (someone find me 4mm grabbers...).

Of all the non-destructive methods to extract broken off GP tips, the two I have not tried: 1) rotate the piston to open the exhaust valve - then "shop vac". 2) Just run the damned engine. Since I have spent a good deal of time with magnets and 4mm/5.5mm endoscopes... and have YET to see the GP tip - I conclude it fell right through the cup onto the top of the TDC piston in #2. I do not have the tools to force the exhaust valve open and blow/suck/force anything out of the cyl, and I don't really want to rotate and force the tip into whatever.

Since the compression numbers were really good, the engine is highly likely to be worth saving, it might even be a fresh rebuild. Which excludes the "just run it" methodology. It is entirely possible the shopvac methods worked, but with a detail inspection of the shop vac paper filter not coming up with any metal (none) and the compression numbers being good, we're just not going the "crank it and pray" method - which had some merit given the costs involved... $5K for a rebuild, or $2K plus-plus to yank the heads for a 50/50 bet.

So, the outcome of this little ****** Glow Plug experience, is it will go to the local Diesel Performance shop - it is out of my hands. As an engineer or consultant of any kind - the key to success is to know your limits, both of knowledge and of risk. This one is past me. The truck may have $8K in parts already, only be worth $5K as I write this (keeping it ugly... !!!)... blah blah blah.

The only things left to decide are what shop CAN/Should do the work - and what other things should be done while in there... This is what I'm likely to do... "since I'm in there"...

Obviously: Install ARP Head Studs - you have the heads off, just DO this. Machine the Surfaces, Cleanup Everything, valley pan blah blah blah... every gasket/consumable etc.

But realistically - I'm likely to also:
1) Rebuild the rest of the heads. Valve, seats, springs, guides...
2) get the Turbo work done with a new Standyne & Injectors

I'm going to accept that I put a bad GP in #2. And that I just have to go forward.

Again - thank you everyone. Lets close this thread out...

 

[IDIBRONCO]

Good luck. Hopefully you'll be making a thread titled something like' Boy am I sure glad that my truck's running now. Here's what it took."

 

[MadMac]

Good outcome, even if I had to wait six weeks. The shop used the "compress the exhaust valve" method first - which was succesful. $600 for four hours of labor was a lot cheaper. Not certain you can see how fried to a crisp this GP tip is, certainly shows what happens when the plug is... mislabeled. The engine might have survived, but given the size of the tip survival without consequences is unlikely.

My lessons learned are:
1. Check the actual GP markings when you buy them - every single GP. Check them *again* before you're doing the work, and *again* when you actually put them in...
2. if a tip breaks off, resist ALL thoughts of trying to pass it through or break it up with the pistons... highly unlikely one of us here is going to admit to cratering an engine - so we see the unlikely success stories...
3. given gravity and how the cup is shaped - extremely unlikely the GP tip stayed in the cup.
4. if a 3mm boroscope doesn't show the tip *in the cup* - go directly to the compressed exhaust valve method. Don't bother trying to scope through the GP hole, pull the injector. Even if the broken tip is in the cup - I seriously doubt it stays there - see the gravity comment.
5. when it happens, go have a beer and laugh at your predicament. Then, either pull the valve cover to compress the valve, or have the truck hauled off to someone who will...

In some ways, I would rather have had the head studs + gaskets put in... but given compression numbers in the 450's to 500's - this is the right thing to do.

So the next project is find/install a real antenne and a much better set of dash panels + dash pad.

FWIW - the LMCTrucks antenne cable is two feet shorter than the stock version, requiring a reroute in front of the defroster duct instead of behind. But what I really hated was the clasp holding the antenna in, it is certain to bend/break.

 

[MadMac]

The Homer DOH moment to close this thread - enjoy my stupidity. The original problem on this was a hard starting problem which gradually became worse and worse. I checked a bunch of things, good visual inspection, some volt/ohm work etc... and then started by replacing the GPs - which is where the #2 end promptly broke off and dropped all the way onto the cylinder.

At the shop picking the Blue Hefalump, the owner / IDI specialist gave me some what fores about the cheap GP relay I had, and how I needed a continuous service version b/c the OEMs sometimes stick and cook the engine. Ok, so I ordered an OEM at least, didn't have time to find the never fail part. Replacing it, I get the hot side pulled first. When I go to pull the leads to the GP harness... its not just loose, it is an accordion. Enough to make *some*, but guessing that one side or the other never rec'd power. So I replaced it - a 10 min job. One cycle of the GP, and it started immediately. Forehead Homer Slapping DOH moment indeed.

In my defense, it was not obvious the nut had backed off the post that much, you would not know unless you pressed on the spade stack. Even the shop missed it. Still - quite the Homer moment.