Fluid change or rebuild?

[raydav]

I have an E4OD that I built eleven years and 95K miles ago. I have never changed the fluid. It was red, it is now brown, which I assume is friction material.

Is it fluid change or rebuild time?

 

[DaveBen]

would change the fluid unless you are having slipping or other tranny problems.

 

[XOLATEM]

The brown just could be the fluid has given up from time and heat...

Fluid quality varies from time to time...I found that out from being in the industry for 'many a mile..'...

If it were mine...and I could not remember what fluid I put in it over ten years ago...I would get a clean drain pan and dump the trans pan and remove the filter...(have another new filter on hand...) and then break open the old filter and then 'read' it...and see if anything is shedding friction, bronze, metal, or plastic...if anything is going bad...you should be able to see what is going on.

Then decide if you want to just change all of the fluid or panic and start ripping things out from under the truck...

You didn't say if it was acting up...so..freshening it up would be your call...

Again...if it were mine...and any new updates are available to strengthen the unit better than it was a decade ago...and I was bored and nobody crawling all over me to do something for them...then I would freshen it up.

But that is just me...and just my $00.02...

 

[XOLATEM]

Like Columbo used to say.."Just one more thing.."

The torque convertor...back when you built the unit last time...the industry had figured out that the factory method to apply the convertor clutch was for the clutch plate to be slightly concave and flex as it is being pushed to the front side of the convertor...this worked ok for a while and kept the apply feel more agreeable for the driver and passengers...

In time...the plate would crack and the clutch material would scorch and shave off...which would contaminate the cooler and possibly plug it up and restrict cooler flow.

So...if you had the convertor rebuilt when you fixed the unit last time...and thoroughly flushed the cooler...you are probably ok-er than you would be if you had either...

'A'- not changed the convertor..

'B'- put in a factory convertor of the early style with the lockup plate that is designed to flex...

No torque convertor rebuilder that was 'worth his salt' eleven years ago would have used the old-style lockup plate...they would have installed the updated version.

Which brings to mind...it might be a good idea to take loose your cooler lines from the transmission and see if they are restricted as far as flow potential...

If it were mine...I would do that and blow the fluid into a clean bucket and wait for the aerated fluid to settle down and check for contaminants...then flush and backflush and see what else, if any comes out of it.

Once I was done with that...then hook it back up run it to charge the system...and the take the return line back a-loose and put a rubber hose on it and run it into a bucket and get a helper to start the engine and see if you have good flow...

One quart in twenty seconds at idle was a good rule of thumb.

If the cooler was restricted then that would tend to darken the fluid from excess heat.

So...does the brown stuff smell burnt...or is it just aged...?

Again..just my $00.02...

 

[ISPKI]

Transmission fluid is supposed to be changed every ~30,000 miles on these depending on how its being worked. I would drain everything, including the torque converter and replace the filter before even considering rebuilding the transmission.

If it has been that many miles since it was last serviced, it may be worthwhile bringing it to a transmission specialist. They usually have a machine that hooks into your cooler lines and pumps all the old fluid out while backfilling with fresh fluid. Supposedly those are very thorough, cleans your lines, your filter, the T/C, everything, and its not much more expensive than the cost of DIY.

 

[XOLATEM]

The following is only my opinion and is not to be construed as advice or fact...it is only my opinion and belief forged by prior experience and this experience is more than ten years old and not to be taken as universal truth.

That being said....

Transmission fluid is supposed to be changed every ~30,000 miles on these depending on how its being worked. I would drain everything, including the torque converter and replace the filter before even considering rebuilding the transmission.

This I wholeheartedly agree with...after you have broken open the old filter and seen if the complete fluid change is going to not be a waste of money...

If it has been that many miles since it was last serviced, it may be worthwhile bringing it to a transmission specialist.

This I also agree with if you don't feel comfortable doing the work yourself...but you said you built it eleven years ago and I assumed (perhaps mistakenly) that you had built the unit yourself instead of 'having' it built.

They usually have a machine that hooks into your cooler lines and pumps all the old fluid out while backfilling with fresh fluid. Supposedly those are very thorough, cleans your lines, your filter, the T/C, everything,

This I DO NOT agree with...I am reasonably sure that any reputable transmission shop is going to have a method and/or machine to flush the cooler and lines...but they are not going to try to 'completely' flush a unit in the vehicle and expect the filter to be cleaned by that process as well...the filter is a composite filter and it is impossible to 'flush' a filter like the one you have...it must be replaced...

If the pan is dropped and the filter changed at some point in this 'flushing' procedure..then maybe...but when those 'whole unit' flushing machines hit the market...I studied them ...there were four types by four different companies...I checked into every one and I nixed the idea of using them in my operation...I considered them..in my personal opinion and judgement to be of limited effectiveness and wasteful of trans fluid...thus generating more waste oil to deal with... and promising more than they could deliver...and...come hell or high water..I was absolutely NOT going to do anything with someones vehicle that I would not do with my own and especially if I was carrying precious cargo...(people, animals, etc..)

Now...as to those that would probably buy and use those 'whole unit in the vehicle flushing machines'...I think that you may be talking about general repair shops and oil change specialists...

These people that offer that service...I am sure that they mean well and probably honestly believe that they are helping folks with their vehicles...and maybe they do in some or maybe most instances...but if you have a fairly good idea of how the unit works...I mean an in-depth thorough knowledge of the hydraulics and powerflow...and your reputation rides on every unit you do and every service you offer...you probably would not want to take any chances that have not been proven to be ok.

If...you can get a transmission shop owner that has been around any length of time to be totally candid with you...you may find out that a portion of their work was generated from a previously attempted flush...that did not involve a pan drop and filter change...and all the flush did was give the old filter more to stop up with..

and its not much more expensive than the cost of DIY.

Everything is relative...depends on your sense of 'value'...

To me...I get more value from the repairs and mainenance I do myself...much more gratifying...

I just had to leave my truck for a few hours at a shop to get the front end alignment looked at and adjusted...because I no longer have a shop and definitely not an alignment system..

For once...I was on the other end of the counter...and I had to force myself to not just jump outta my skin from being nervous...about it...so..I saw what it was like for the 'other guy'...and I sucked it up...

probably was a good thing...kept me humble...the head mechanic was competant and had a good bedside manner...whew...

Anyway...

I did have a method for a complete fluid flush for a unit in the vehicle and on the lift...and it did not involve using a machine...but it took a huge drain pan and lots of fluid to do...and I did not have the opportunity to do it very often...because most of the work I did was complete rebuilds.

So...to RayDav...there you have it...what you do is up to you...you have at least two point of views...bet you thought that you would get a short and sweet answer, huh..?

 

[trackspeeder]

Change the fluid. Mercon or Mercon V is required. Your choice dino or synthetic.
The brown color is from heat cycles and contaminates. It means the fluid is tired.

To change it you can go the old way. Drop the pan, drain the converter ect.
The better way, drop the pan install a new filter. Fill with fluid and flush it following Mark K's instructions.

When you drop the pan don't worry if the magnet looks like a Chia pet. It will that is normal.

 

[raydav]

I did build the trans. It has an F5 pump with a metal drain back valve - I melted a plastic one once. I used a Transgo Tugger kit, with the selective hole size the smaller of the three suggestions. It has a 6 planet somewhere, I forget where.

The convertor is a triple disk billet. The pan is six inch deep aluminum. I plumbed a standard Ford oil filter into the cooler feed line. The cooler is a dedicated heat exchanger near the rear of the trans with a fan. The cooler lines are 3/8 copper - no rubber. There are a in-cab temp and pressure gauges.

There is a sight tube on the side of the pan. I fill to the top of the pan.

It is controlled by first gen Baumman.

All shifts are crisp.

Cold start requires a bit of warm up to get pressure to release the converter for reverse, but drive works OK immediately.

How to get the old fluid out. The converter does not have a drain plug. What is the suggested drain procedure? I have a four post lift so working underneath is easy.

I have some Valvoline, full synthetic, DEXRON VI, MERCON LV, DEX/MERC. Is OK?

And yes, I would rather not build a trans right now. I have a 63 F100, stripped to the shell, in first primer.

And we just took a month off for Hot Rod Power Tour, 6100 miles, in the subject vehicle, which is an 84 E350, IDI, turbo on frame, 9K#.

TY all
Ray

 

[trackspeeder]

You will need to use the flush procedure then. Mark Kovalsky has a write up on FTE. I'm not sure if the write up is here.

DEX/MERC is good. I'm a little leery with LV. LV was speced for the 5R110. It had issues with the early units

 

[CDX825]

Don't use mercon lv or dexron vi. Both are low viscosity fluids. Valvoline maxlife is also a low viscosity fluid.

 

[ISPKI]

Yeah I am pretty sure they replace the filter as standard practice during a flushing operation. The flush is primarily intended to push as much old fluid along with any debris and particles out of the system, radiator, torque converter, everything. Since those are normally fairly difficult to clean out adequately, its probably worth doing if its been a long time. The radiator especially can collect alot of deposits in it overtime. Local trans specialist near me does it for ~85$ last I checked. I dont know what they do with all the fluid though, maybe it gets filtered in the machine? I cant imagine they just toss all that transmission fluid.

I used wolfs head when I last serviced my superduty's E4OD. It checks all the necessary boxes and holds up to higher operating temperatures than the traditional mercon stuff.

 

[XOLATEM]

When you drop the pan don't worry if the magnet looks like a Chia pet. It will that is normal.

When I read that...I blew coffee through my nose...made a gosh-awful mess...

I read Mark K's instructions...he is pretty much spot on...very similar to what I had figured out back then...I believe he posted that in 2004.

Notice he did not say anything about using a 'flush' machine...

Local trans specialist near me does it for ~85$ last I checked.

Is that 'it' that he does for $85 a flushing of the cooler and lines incident to a rebuilt unit installation or a transmission fluid exchange using a 'flush' machine..?

The flush is primarily intended to push as much old fluid along with any debris and particles out of the system, radiator, torque converter, everything. Since those are normally fairly difficult to clean out adequately, its probably worth doing if its been a long time. The radiator especially can collect alot of deposits in it overtime.

Maybe that is the 'intent'...but I doubt seriously if it accomplishes that...hark back to my conclusion that those machines probably promise more than they can deliver.

I don't believe that any fluid exchange machine reverses the fluid flow in a unit temporarily while it is operating and the vehicles engine is running.

If there are any contaminants or debris caught in the trans cooler in the radiator...they are going to stay there until...no matter what flushing machine you use that only exchanges the old fluid for new...until you induce a reverse fluid flow in the cooler lines and have the convertor out line (convertor to cooler) disconnected from the unit.

Most units have a reverse flow blocking check valve in the convertor charge/cooler flow circuit to keep the convertor from bleeding half its fluid out while the unit sets up overnight or otherwise is not used for a while.

You can tell when you have convertor drain-down from fuzz or debris sticking open the check valve by pulling the stick on a unit that has been sitting a few days before you start the engine. If the fluid is 'way high on the stick...you have convertor drain-down.

Still...I don't know how any fluid exchanger machine is going to 'flush' or otherwise purge any contaminants out of the cooler, torque convertor, or anywhere in the unit itself while you are running the engine...the fluid only flows one direction...the normal operating direction...and just by flowing in that direction the unit is filtering its own fluid at the filter and the cooler is catching anything that it can that comes out of the convertor. The cooler will not get 'cleaned' with a fluid exchange...ya gotta take the lines loose and backflush.

Additionally...if you have ever been on site...standing behind the man cutting open a torque convertor while it is going through the process of being rebuilt... and before he puts the components through the initial wash prior to inspection...you will see that contaminants have a way of depositing themselves all around the periphery of the shell of the convertor...it is, after all, a good-sized centrifuge...and...if the contaminants that deposited themselves around the shell in operation have not 'flushed' themselves out on normal operation and you cannot induce a reverse flow of fluid through the convertor while it is spinning...nothing that is caked in there is coming out unless you cut it open and use some kind of hand tool and labor to get the crud loosened up and out.

This is why I was not going to promise what could not be delivered as far as 'flushing' contaminants out of a transmission using a fluid exchanger. Transmission repair customers are worried enough about how much money they are going to pay to fix the dern thing without giving them false expectations and performance guarantees....

Yeah I am pretty sure they replace the filter as standard practice during a flushing operation.

This does not sound like you are certain that 'they' do...

Neither am I...

And when it comes to this...I am not going to rely on mere faith...


...it goes back to whether this 'machine flush' is performed by a transmission professional that has a reputation to protect or a general repair shop or oil change specialist that can fall back on the fact that transmission servicing is not their main line or business...they can plead ignorance when things go wrong...and call up their transmission man in desperation...

The parts books have been wrong in the past...and I have run into a number of vehicles over the years that had the wrong filter installed because it was "what the parts store gave them.."

Another thing that amazed me is you could get incorrect info from the major car magazines the few times they would show a 'pan, filter and pan gasket chart'...it baffled the heck outta me that ...here you have a well-known and oft-quoted car magazine...that puported to be the car and truck crafting gurus...and they could not be bothered to publish a correct pan and gasket chart for the myriad of readers that hang on their every utterance...

So...what I am mostly saying here is that automatic transmissions...when it comes to service and repair...have a lot of potential pitfalls and it is best left up to the few remaining mechanics that have stuck with it for a while...and ballsy do-it-yourselfers who are not afraid of learning the hard way...at least they know that they are going to spend some money while they are getting 'schooled'...

But when it comes to the general public...it is best to manage their expectations from the get-go and not give them any reason to slam the industry as a whole...do not assure them that a fluid exchange machine can 'flush' anything but just the old fluid.

Period. period. period....lol...

 

[trackspeeder]

Most flush machines run hot solvent through the tranny and coolers. They can remove most debris not all. This is one of the reasons to replace O/A coolers. By replacing the O/A cooler you don't have to worry about crud being stuck in it.

 

[XOLATEM]

Most flush machines run hot solvent through the tranny and coolers.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up....yet another reason I refused to 'flush' a transmission system with one of those machines.

When you introduce a hot solvent into the unit and convertor you have just contaminated all of the friction material that the unit relies on to operate.

You have just screwed up the coefficient of friction that was engineered into the whole units design and now...how are you going to clean that mess up..?

You are not going to get all of that solvent out of the system and you have just thinned out the new fluid and shortened the life of the unit.

Not to mention the fact that the elastomer seals in the unit may be compromised by coming in contact with a solvent..?

Would you pour a solvent..? into your brake master cylinder..?

In an E4OD, and the 4R100 as well as virtually most any unit on the market today (except for dual clutch VW's) and since 1980 for GM, 1978 for Chrysler, and AODE for Ford the torque convertor has a clutch plate lined with a fiber friction material and also fiber friction material lining the clutches and bands...

What keeps the friction material from burning up and flaking off the metal plate or band it is bonded to is the fact that the material is highly porous and bathed in fluid.

When the unit is initally filled with fluid the plates are soaked and hold a certain amount of fluid until they are applied and then a certain amount of heated fluid is squeezed out...then the clutch plates are supposed to grip the steel plate next to it.

When the clutch is released...the friction material absorbs fresh, cooler fluid that is circulating around the drum...either inside it or outside...and the constant cycling of the hot fluid out and cooled fluid in is what keeps the friction material from scorching.

Manufacturers of friction materials spend an ungodly amount of time, energy, and money to engineer a certain coeeficient of friction to work with a vehicle manufacturers specicications so that their product will be chosen to become a preferred vendor for any particular transmission for any particular model year.

They have to constantly evaluate the performance of their product and modify it when it becomes necessary to comply with the OEM specs in order to not lose their contract.

This is why the OEM specify certain types of fluid...the fluid qualities and the friction material properties have to work together with the initial factory shift calibration and strategy.

Once you contaminate your unit with a solvent..? you are not going to get it completely out of your unit, unless you run the unit with an endless supply of clean fluid for many miles and shift cycles...you would have to bottle-baby the unit much like being hooked up to an IV in the hospital with a contant drain hooked up to your uninary tract.

When it comes to a clutch or band apply and release in a unit...the rate of apply and release is monitored by the speed sensors and the data is fed to the ECM....The computer is looking for a change in rotational speeds after it commands a shift...you can have a ...

Crank speed sensor
Input speed sensor
Output speed sensor
And other monitored rotational speed sensors...

Once you corrupt the coefficient of friction in a unit the ECM will catch the change and attempt to adjust the acceleration or deceleration of monitored rotational speeds...some attempts will jack up the line pressure overall in less sophisticated systems and will adjust just the shift that it is most worried about in more complex systems.

If you are having trouble getting your head around the concept of coefficient of friction...do this simple demonstration...

Find a large flat pane of glass and lay it flat in front of you on a table and secure it so it will not move...

Wet your finger...probably your index finger will work fine...

Now...push down on the glass with moderate force with that wet finger and slide it along the surface of the glass untill you get a chatter or shudder feeling...

You started off with one coefficient of friction and ended up with another one entirely. The coefficient of friction constantly changed while the heat from friction evaporated the lubricant.

Back to the hot solvent issue ...

You may say that thousands of people have 'flushed' their transmissions with this method and suffered no ill effects...

I'm not buying it...

And I am not going to recommend putting hot solvent into anyones transmission that I might have to 'live in a fishbowl' with.

If you think that my concerns are not based in reality...call up any friction material manufacturer and ask to speak with their tech help and ask about apply rates, holding power, and release rates...you may find out more than you really wanted to know about transmission friction material.

Borg Warner
Raybestos
Allomatic
Alto
Schaeffler Friction Products
etc. etc. etc.

Lets talk about solvents...

What kind of solvent do you want to dilute your transmission fluid with..?
Kerosene
Petroleum Naptha
Varsol
Gasoline
Mineral spirits
111 tricloralethane
Brake Clean
Acetone
Paint thinner
Etc, etc, etc,

So...do we know what specifically the type of solvent..? we want to dump into our precious, expensive gotta-depend-on-it-to get-to-work transmission today..? Do we know what the flush machines manufacturer recommends, specifically..? what is actually in the can that you are supposed to add with the 'flush' process...?

Lets get a quart of solvent..? and pour it in and expect it to improve...? our units performance..?

Basically the same thing...

But I don't know nuthin'...pay me no mind...

 

[XOLATEM]

This is one of the reasons to replace O/A coolers. By replacing the O/A cooler you don't have to worry about crud being stuck in it.

I agree with this thought...and this is one of the reasons I quit building transmissions for people with modern vehicles...

There is one exception...when the trans is operated in much colder climates and needs the factory cooler arrangement to facillitate quick warm-up...some units will not shift or will delay the shift until it is warm enough for the fluid to flow properly.

That was the exception...now back to the rule...

The coolers in the radiator were getting more compact and fragile...they would catch more contaminants and had gotten a lot more difficult to flush completely.

A number of factory coolers would fracture and let coolant contaminate the transmission...which is much worse than solvents.

The result would be a bickering finger-pointing episode with the vehicle owner that had refused to put a new radiator in their 150k car or truck with the original rebuilt trans and eventually it was looking like I was going to actually PAY people for the PRIVILEGE of TOUCHING their automobile or truck...

Hell, no...they can go and you-know-what themself.

I am the professional...not them...what I recommend goes...or no dice.

Back to the replacing the cooler...yes...best thing to do...get rid of the factory weak link...