BIO DIESEL VERSUS USED OILS

[MARQ2277]

I am a bit confussed, and maybe those of you who know a thing or two about this subject can clairafy this issue.

I have been on this cite for a couple of weeks now discussing used motor oil, and used veggie oil. I was under the impression that, all was need to burn this stuff in my IDI motor, was to filter it (and I am still not sure how much filtering is actually needed), and then put it in the tank and go. Now, I just got off of a few web cites concerning making bio-diesel. But, they take the same veggie oil, whether new or used, and they go through this compecated chemical process using lye and methenol, heating, seperating, washing, drying, etc. What the heck!!! Why is it that I read and hear that I can just filter oil (and in some cases I hear motor oil, tranny fluid, synthetics, and what ever, regardless of the ratio of mix that may or may not be made with regular diesel), put it in my tank, and/or mix it, etc., and than I read on these official cites that I got to have a chemistry set, harmful chemicals, a freakin' lab, and in some cases a license to use this veggie oil in my truck.

Now, will some body please (and please be somebody who actually knows what they are talking about, and not; "I heard" or "I was told". No offense please, I just want to know the truth before I start spending money, and buying stuff to burn alternative fuels in my truck.

Marq
_______________________________________________________
1990 Ford F-250 4X4:
7.3 IDI with 120K on the clock:
ATS Turbo with waste gate:
Stage One Injectors (Oregon Injector Service):
Complete Return Fuel Kit (Oregon Injector Service):
DB2 Pump, cranked up with Cold Advance wired permanently on:
4” down pipe, 4” straight through exhaust stopping between cab and bed (no **** on my stuff):
Torque Converter Lock Up Switch (On/Off/Lock-Up):
E4OD Line Pressure Controller (adjusted to fast/firm shifts):
4” lift w/Rancho shocks:
Big Fat Tires on custom rims:

Tows 1985 fully loaded heavy 28 foot RV (my house) everywhere:

 

[Michael Fowler]

I understand your confusion...
Diesels CAN burn a variety of fuel, diesel fuel, vegetable oil, peanut oil, used motor oil, used veggie oil, and probably other stuff.
One of the problems with burning stuff that is not regular diesel is that it may contain fats that might solidify in cooler temps. This is why some people who burn waste veggie add on some equipment to heat the veggie oil before it goes thru the Injection Pump. Other people run waste veggie (WVO) w/o the heating process, but mix it with diesel--the proportion becoming more diesel as the temperature declines. One other technique for using WVO is to fill one tank with WVO and the other with regular #2 diesel. The diesel is used to start the engine and run it until it is fully warmed up, then the operator switches to the WVO tank until a few minutes before shutting down when he switches back to diesel. this is to purge the WVO from the fuel lines, and IP so that fresh #2 diesel is in the system for the next cold start.
Waste Motor Oil (WMO) may be used much the same way as WVO.
I think the IP requires filtering to 10 micron. Some people filter their WVO, or WMO to the same 10 micron level while others go yo 5 or even 1 micron just to prevent filters from clogging.

Every diesel driver always carries a spare fuel filter, right?? If you run WVO, you carry more spare filters as a safety measure.

While you CAN run WVO, and make vehicle modifications to make it run better ( heaters, etc),some people prefer to do all the processing before they put it into their fuel tank. These are the people who convert that WVO into bio-diesel. Bio-diesel is nearly the same as regular petroleum diesel as far as the engine is concerned--except it has more solvents, so it will clean out your tank, lines and IP--again carry spare filters.
There is also some concern over whether these alternative fuels, or fuel additives are legal, and whether the driver should pay the road use taxes to their State. Some view WVO and WMO simply as additives like "diesel clean" on which no one ever pays a road use tax. Your State may disagree. The liability is yours.

Hope this helps to clarify things a bit for you.

There are plenty of links here that discuss the various alternative fuels. Many hours of reading are available.
For info on processing your own bio-diesel, simply google " Appleseed processor".

 

[MARQ2277]

I guess my confusion is that, why do people chemically (by adding lye and methenol, etc.) process veggie plus filter it if the oil is used; yet I read in this forum that a lot of diesel owners only filter the same veggie oil, and run it in there truck. I still am not getting why don't they just filter it (if it's used), and run it in their vehicle, especially in the summer when viscosity may be an issue. They are distilling it or converting it for a reason. Why?? It just don't make sense to spend that much money on chemicals, and spend all that time converting veggie oil, if (except for viscosity) it burns the same. It tells me that there is something wrong with burning filter only oil. Does it damage things in the long run, does it smoke bad, what?? I am still confused.

Does that make sense? Why spend all that time and $$ (specially in the summer months when viscosity is not an issue, even if that's the case), when you can just burn it. Something is not right>

Marq
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[sassyrel]

straight wvo--is far heavier in viscosity than bio d. thats one of the reasons they do it--the other---is they remove all the impurities without filters by doing it this way---the other is that they remove the glycerin from the wvo--thats the stuff thats on the bottom of the container--if there is any--its normally white in color--and far thicker than the oil, and will disappear after heating the oil up a ways--------some say youll have buildup in the cylinders if you dont remove the glycerin--which burns at about 400 degrees. wonder how hot it is when the ignition in the cylinder lights off ???? way past 400--------------------------

 

[MARQ2277]

In Bio-Diesel, the process is to basically remove Glycerin from the vegetable oil (which ever oil you use), by adding Lye and Methanol. Then there is this long complicated process to wash the bio-diesel (with water, out of all things to remove contaminants, which also absorbs the excess methanol), than you must seperate the bio-diesel from the contaminants, soap (which is the glycerin), methanol by distillation. Now, this is the question boys and girls. Why are they doing all this to remove contaminants and glycerin, when they could just filter the contaminants and burn it with the glycerin?? Why are they spending all this time and $$ removing glycerin. It must do something bad, or they would not go through all the trouble, . . . right??? If that was not the case, it would be much cheaper to filter it and burn it. Something is wrong. What is it??

Marq
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[Diesel JD]

Well I've homebrewed hundreds of gallons, and if well made bio is usually pretty good fuel. Its not complicated to process wash and dry especially if you can get decent oil. One thing we want out of the oil is the acid from the cooking, that's why you do a titration to tell you how much lye or KOH you need to neutralize that nasty crap. Methanol is poisonous, but mostly if you consistently overexpose yourself to the fumes or drink it. The caustic can burn you and real harm can come if little kidlets get into it or you get it in your eyes. As far as the legal issues goes it varies from state to state, mostly the feds leave it alone unless you're selling, in which case they want their cut. The chemicals are mostly legal to have in "reasonable quantities" subject to the discretion of the fire marshall in some cases. Probably you'll never have a problem unless you have a neighbor that wants to make trouble for you or cause a fire.

 

[Devilish]

Think of it like this... different strokes for different folks. Now say you have a VW tdi, it likes bioD and can be run on wvo. But it doesn't like wvo. The injection system is computer controlled and the injection pump is rather sensitive due to it being designed for ulsd. VW requires that you use special oil that is supposed to be compliant to some newer specification or you warranty is void. If you use wvo or home brew bioD well, you warranty is void also. Some people are having early turbo failure in their tdi's probably due to wvo eating their oil seals and if it goes on long enough, **** goes their engine. The nice thing about our idi's, mercedes, and early vw diesels is their injection systems are more tolerant of alternative fuels. Only thing is to use wvo we need to replace injector orings and fuel lines with viton and if you got a turbo then you must expect to replace the oil seals since the acid from the wvo WILL get into your engine oil and destroy those seals.

 

[RKOCH]

If veggie oil is heated to 200 degrees or so before it is burned you are fine if not. It will not burn completely leaving a coke build up in the engine and will stick rings etc. My mercedes I ran straight filtered WVO for a year and it got harder and harder to start to the point it needed either on a 100 degree day. So I took the engine apart and it was slam full of coke all the rings stuck etc. I saw it with my own eyes.

 

[h2odrx]

The simple answer,...... not one... Convert the oil or convert the engine? Filter, mix and go......

 

[Diesel JD]

I've never heard of the acid from the wvo eating seals but it makes sense if you're burning anything very acidic. WVO people usually are picky about their source and get good oil titrates <2 NaOH or they treat and deacidify and dry their bad oil. With the titration less than 2 you're looking at not much more than 1 % FFA and FFA is a weak acid, not like H2SO4 or HCL, but I bet a lot of things would break real quick if you started trying to burn some of the real bad oil like some of the titration 40KOH stuff some people over on the infopop site are getting...thats 20% or better acid folks! Als any alternative fuel probably does void your warranty on fuel related issues, but it should have nothing to do with it on other stuff, that's what I hear.

 

[MARQ2277]

Okay, now I think I am getting somewhere. If I use filtered wvo, or wmo (veggie oil/motor oil), my rubber "O" rings, rubber fuel lines will be destroyed. My next question is, somesaid that wvo does not burn all the way. Is that the case, and if so, does anyone know why? I am trying to determine if it is worth spending $400 (of money I really do not have), to filter used veggie oil and used motor oil, to burn in my truck. Being on a fixed income, it's getting to the point I can't afford gas for my truck. And, if I have to sell my truck, I have to sell my RV (house), and move someplace I just won't like. So, it's realy realy important I get good information here. Because if there's any way I can run used oil, without damaging my engine, I will spend my income tax check on a system to filter used oil. I will only get one chance at this ('cause I have this free tax check, and after that I may not have another large chunk of change to do anything), and I just need to know if it can be done or not. I got so excited by people claiming to run used motor oil, and veggie, to find out that; that was not quite the case, they failed to mention all the things you have to do (if it's true), and the damage it will cause to lines, turbo, and engine (if it's true).

Marq
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[RKOCH]

To burn WVO completely and correctly you need a inline or tank heater that will keep the fuel 200 deg. Filter pour and go is a no no on WVO. Like is said I killed an engine. The glycerin just does not fully burn unless pre heated. Any of these Veggie conversions have heaters in the the line, filter or tank. Bio does not need to be heated this is why I make bio. And yes I also burn WMO but not in concentrations of more than 25% as I have seen it coke up a motor as well.

 

[Devilish]

wmo is the cheaper of the evils since you can blend it with diesel without having to replace orings or other rubber parts. It's bioD and wvo that'll eat non-viton rubber parts. I think that was part of your confusion. wvo needs to be heated to make the oil viscious enough to move through the fuel system(120-140) but likes higher heat to be fully burned. wmo can be run cold at higher concentrations after startup but imho in order to be fully burned should be heated as well. The higher the heat the less risk of coking. Also imho having a turbo on your engine of choice helps combustion since it forces more air into the cylinders which equates to more compression which causes more cylinder heat. That's why turbo engines may smoke more at idle but clean up well at while driving. At least more so than na engines. So invest in the kit and run wmo.
One more thing 100% biod(b100) is still thicker than #2 diesel but not as thick as wvo but will still need to be blended during the cold winter months.

 

[MARQ2277]

Yep, I can see clearly now. You guys sure helped clear things up for me. For a minute there, I started to think wvo/wmo could not be done. But after getting your reponses, and researching, I found out that:

1. I need to change any rubber parts and lines.
2. I need to use a heater (vegtherm or glow plug type; the glow plug type heaters are better and cheaper from what I have researched; and there are some great how to's on it also), to prevent coking.

Now I understand why bio-diesel removes the glycerin. Glycerin obviously causes coking, because it does not burn off like the remaining components of the wvo, unless it is heated so the glycerin will completely burn off also.

You guys rock. Thank you very much, I will now plan on building my system.

Marq
____________________________________________________
1990 Ford F-250 4X4:
7.3 IDI with 120K on the clock:
ATS Turbo with waste gate:
Stage One Injectors (Oregon Injector Service):
Complete Return Fuel Kit (Oregon Injector Service):
DB2 Pump, cranked up with Cold Advance wired permanently on:
4” down pipe, 4” straight through exhaust stopping between cab and bed (no **** on my stuff):
Torque Converter Lock Up Switch (On/Off/Lock-Up):
E4OD Line Pressure Controller (adjusted to fast/firm shifts):
4” lift w/Rancho shocks:
Big Fat Tires on custom rims:

Tows 1985 fully loaded heavy 28 foot RV (my house) everywhere:

 

[Diesel JD]

Another thing is you really don't have to spend big bucks on a bio processor if you don't want to. You just need something to keep the chemicals together and limit your fume exposure. A 5 gallon bucket or a 15 gallon drum can be a great entry level processor. Same applies to waste motor/vegoil heating systems. A commercial system is very expensive but if you're handy you can fab something up for way cheaper. You just need a heat exchanger and then some way to isolate the veggie/motor oil system from your diesel/biodiesel system. Personally I think in your case you should invest in a way to heat your fuel system, you aren't going to be able to run any more than B40 or 50 at most in Idaho in the winter. Even here in N. Florida I drop to 80 or 90% for our coldest 2-4 weeks. You know when we see 20-30 at night. Good luck. The knowledge is out there to build a system cheaply and effectively. You just want to make sure you can find a ready source of WVO or WMO for free or cheap where you spend most of your time.