12v vs. 24v vs. ISB

[tbirdfiend281]

so, im kinda curious rescently to find out more about the power adding potential of my fellow diesel community, ive already asked around about the duramax, i know whats out there for a ford and have driven most every shape and form of an on road form you can think of, but dodge is still a slight mystery to me, i know in all forms large amounts of power can be had, from reading writeups of 500whp 12v's and such, and also just seeing 24v's and isb makes gobs of power, but what motor does this the best?

the newer cummins have the large disadvantage of emessions stuff, but does it effect them as much as it seems to effect the aftermarket of the 6.0 ford?

does a 12v stand up to match a 24v mod for mod, i know in the 4.6 ford V8 world, its close, and a DOHC setup vs a SOHC setup really doesnt offer to much of an advantage, but what about the cummins?

if i where to be in the market for a dodge pickup, would an 03+ 5.9 powered truck be a good buy?

 

[argve]

Any one of them will yield power - it's how you about doing it. With a mechanical 12v you either adjust parts or replace them (typically you can have a ton of power for less than 500 clams)

24v - it's all chips and programmers to start with. (typically the same power had by a mechanical 12v will cost you double).

 

[tbirdfiend281]

ya but what kind of issues are seen when moding ******'s, and does the 24v offer benefits over the 12v such as more MPG or anything along those lines?

i have heard that head gaskets can tend to fail at power levels with these motors, is that true?

 

[black haze]

Older cummins heads and gaskets are more tend to crack and fail.That is assuming you have the stock head..If your looking at and older 1st gen i would recomend replacing the head gaskets fairly soon.But other than that, like Argave said you can get the same thing out of the engines..But more costly with a 24v..Though both are very very good engines..

 

[rubberfish]

i have heard that head gaskets can tend to fail at power levels with these motors, is that true?

It's funny how 60, 70+lbs of will do that.
Under normal conditions they hold up.
The guys blowing gaskets are trying to break them.
Speaking of..... I see you've met goatboy already.

 

[argve]

Yep keep the boost under 50 and you won't pop a head gasket

when I first got mine i don't know what the boost levels were but I killed a head gasket on the trip home because well it was fun to watch the 35psi boost gauge peg so hard that you thought the needle would break...

now for mileage the 12v p-pumped get the best mileage out of all of them but it's not by much. A buddy of mine has a 99 24v 4x4 auto and after installing his edge juice with attitude he is pulling 18 where as I pull 21 with my 2wd manual. We both drive about the same on take offs - he likes smoke and thrust as well.

 

[Mopar1973Man]

As for the 24V I love the idea of plug N' play enhancements... The other fact is all my power is controllable in the cab...

 

[tonkadoctor]

Only emmissions crapola on the common rail 5.9 from 2003 - 2007 is the Catalytic converter Rest was done with puter programming of injection timing.

EGR and Particulate filter came in with the new 6.7

Me I love my 2004.5

Have put 50,000 miles on it (half towing) since I bought it a few months ago. Have run last 35000 miles with the Bully Dog Triple dog tunes installed no problems. Usually have it on Tow Econo, performance tune is nice too but Extreme/ Crazy Larry is too scary for me. Don't need to be breaking stuff........ Or smoking everything out in every gear.

 

[argve]

Tonka you just bought that truck and you have 50k on her already Man do you have any home time?

 

[tonkadoctor]

Tonka you just bought that truck and you have 50k on her already Man do you have any home time?

Yep, work hard and play harder. Been taking at least a week off for every 3 - 4 weeks out on the road. This month I've been home since the 4th of July, did work 2 days this last weekend shuttling 4 trailers from Statesville, NC to the new Camping World store in Roanoke, VA

 

[jcmoyer2004]

well i have owned a 1st gen 12v, a 2nd gen 12v and 24v, and a common rail and my 1st gen i have now has been the most fun to build. there's just something about knowing that the power you are putting down is done by your own hands and not just a computer. just my .02 i get more satisfaction out of working on a project and seeing it transform infront of your eyes. also the 24v is a fun engine and sounds awsome but the VP44 is the weak spot and costs quite a bit to replace. my bid is either a 12v (1st or 2nd gen) or the common rail. but again just my .02

 

[averagef250]

None have any power advantage over the others except the 96-98 215HP 5 speed dodge engines. Those are pretty hot with minor tweaks.

The most efficient engines are the 89-93 VE pump engines. The VE pumps are stupid simple and bulletproof in most respects and have the least amount of parasitic loss to operate. The later engines take several times the horsepower at cruise speed to run than the VE.

In stock form, the 24V head design flows slightly more than a stock 12V head. The 2003+ commonrail head has a much larger plenum design which is likely the best plug to use one of these engines. The 24V design also uses a central injector which in theory makes for a more efficient combustion and loading of the piston. Commonrail injection has many advantages for noise and emissions. It also costs tenfold what the older stuff does to fix.

My personal opinion is the 89-93 engines are by far and away the easiest and cheapest to reach the 300HP mark (for engines that are below that factory). The 91.5-93 engines are preffered for reliability since 89-91.5's crack heads. The VE pump engines are the simplest and easiest to work on. They have the least problems and start and idle better than the P7100 engines since they are a variable time pump and have a more reliable governor than the P7100's do.

The 94+ dodge engines and most industrial engines are P7100 pump engines. The P7100 can flow a large amount of a fuel. Not to say they all do though. The biggest advantage the P7100 has over the VE engines is that one will survive much longer with very high RPM use. The VE pumps do not like engine RPM's over 3500 and they can be ruined by sustained engine speeds over 2700. The P7100's have a more robust design and full pressure oil lube that will, in theory atleast, make one survive longer up there. Another disadvantage to the P7100 is it's sensitivity to oil changes. P-pumped engines with poor maintenance go through pumps faster and P-pump rebuilds are not cheap. The P-pumped engines are the way to fly for surpassing the 350HP area.

I feel the 98-02 24V's are the poorest engine with the crap VP44 pump, no tangible performance or mileage advantage over a mechanical engine and lots of small issues like 053 blocks, supply pump issues and the HY35 turbo that limits power potential.

The 2003+ commonrail engines are the most technologically advanced, but they have pros and cons. They are quiter and more emissions friendly with multiple injection events per stroke. They have a stouter block skirt design and main girdle system. Fuel system parts can be very expensive and the fuel system is much more sensitive to poor quality fuel than prior years. From the engine's I've torn down the commonrail ones seam to be the downturn of cummins quality. They have the most parts in and on them stamped or cast "China", they use straight cut timing gears instead of helical and some of the castings and fasteners seam lower quality than prior generations. The 2003+ engines are the first time the engines have really changed significantly. These engines do not really interchange with the older ones. Bolt patterns are different, dimensions are different. They only share 40% of the parts with the older ones per cummins and that seams like a stretch to me.

In short, if you want the best mileage and reliability below 300 horse get an 89-93. If you want mechanical and 350+ horse get a P7100 motor. If you like electronics get a commonrail 2003+. Don't get a 98-02 unless someones already fixed all the issues with it or they P-pumped it.