ok then, BACK TO THE 1200hp IDI

[freebird01]

Ok i come back to what pump you would use? Obviously a cummins pump wouldnt work....what about a cat 3208 pump?

 

[The Warden]

The idi would probably make decent power as-is if people would put together their own exhaust and turbo setups rather than using bolt on kits.

But then again there isn't as much room with a V8.

I think that's the core problem and is why you don't really see people do that. Unless you did a remote-mount turbo, or gutted the engine compartment and redesigned the firewall with a BFH, there's VERY little room to play with. Even with those mods, I have a feeling that you'd run into trouble with the steering shaft, the brake master cylinder, and the HVAC box. That's really a problem with ANY V8, and IIRC is the primary reason why Ford thought outside the box with the Scorpion engine and reversed the air flow so that the exhaust exits towards the valley (MUCH shorter distance to the turbo) and the intake air enters the head from the outer part of the block (shorter travel from the IC).

 

[Dave7.3]

The idi would probably make decent power as-is if people would put together their own exhaust and turbo setups rather than using bolt on kits.

But then again there isn't as much room with a V8.

Ya know, if it were such a simple answer as that...don't you think it would be realized by now? People have been tinkering with performance on these engines for almost 30 years... Not only that but there are a handful of people here that HAVE made their own kit but yielded similar results as the aftermarket kits anyway. I can think of one that we are still waiting to hear results on though, so who knows...

I personally am really thinking on lowering the compression as a possible answer for the performance we are looking for. Dave S on the FTE boards is still running ~25psi with his stock ATS 093 kit with milled pistons. Too bad the truck has never been dyno'd...

...is the primary reason why Ford thought outside the box with the Scorpion engine and reversed the air flow so that the exhaust exits towards the valley (MUCH shorter distance to the turbo) and the intake air enters the head from the outer part of the block (shorter travel from the IC).

Less turbo lag too! I am personally looking forward to seeing the results of the build a member here did with his own manifolds and up-pipes that ran PSD style rather than underneath the truck and around like all of the kits do...

 

[The Warden]

Less turbo lag too! I am personally looking forward to seeing the results of the build a member here did with his own manifolds and up-pipes that ran PSD style rather than underneath the truck and around like all of the kits do...

I figured that reducing the turbo lag was the primary reason to shorten the plumbing in any event...people have done remote-mount turbos and ended up with considerable lag issues IIRC.

The custom manifolds going up are a good idea IMHO, but again, you run into the issue with space. Not that it can't be overcome, but can it be overcome while still having a rig that can be driven long distances comfortably (especially for this penguin who needs his a/c)?

As to lowering the compression ratio...I've said this before and I'll say it again. IMHO the Holy Grail of getting a low enough compression ratio to run high boost safely AND keep it so that the engine will start without a constant ether fog, is to redesign the precombustion chamber. Make it so that the extra room is gained there instead of in the main combustion chamber, and you SHOULD eliminate the cold-start problem inherent to milling the piston tops (best shown here). Thing is, then you get into dealing with swirl issues, and potentially also having problems with the precup walls being so thin that they burn out. But, IMHO if someone can do this, you'll have the best answer.

 

[dieselgiant]

What about Common Rail injection. I have personally had my hands on Beans Diesel's Common Railed 7.3 Powerstroke. The CP3 pump could be run of the injection pump gear or BELT DRIVE. They used 6.4 fuel rails, injectors, and pumps. One was driven off the High pressure oil pump gear, and the other was belt driven. Now provided the Powerstroke has crank & cam position sensors in place, but I would figure it would be easier to figure that out then try to adapt some other injection pump on. But the real killer for most people is the COMPUTERS. With computers you could soo fine tune it, infinite timing, and fuel curve adjustments, and injection pressures of 26,000psi +, yeah fuel atomization would be fantastic, but an ECM for an IDI, whats that? Just an idea.

 

[93f250idi]

As to lowering the compression ratio...I've said this before and I'll say it again. IMHO the Holy Grail of getting a low enough compression ratio to run high boost safely AND keep it so that the engine will start without a constant ether fog, is to redesign the precombustion chamber. Make it so that the extra room is gained there instead of in the main combustion chamber, and you SHOULD eliminate the cold-start problem inherent to milling the piston tops (best shown here). Thing is, then you get into dealing with swirl issues, and potentially also having problems with the precup walls being so thin that they burn out. But, IMHO if someone can do this, you'll have the best answer.

gps and grid heater. i think that with a grid heater and the use of glow plugs that it would start normally in hot weather and anything below about 40 degrees would require a block heater.

 

[FordGuy100]

What's the size difference between a 6.4 PSD inject and a IDI injector? That's also I high cost route.

The twin pumps reminded me of a DOHC setup in a sort of way.

 

[yARIC008]

What about Common Rail injection. I have personally had my hands on Beans Diesel's Common Railed 7.3 Powerstroke. The CP3 pump could be run of the injection pump gear or BELT DRIVE. They used 6.4 fuel rails, injectors, and pumps. One was driven off the High pressure oil pump gear, and the other was belt driven. Now provided the Powerstroke has crank & cam position sensors in place, but I would figure it would be easier to figure that out then try to adapt some other injection pump on. But the real killer for most people is the COMPUTERS. With computers you could soo fine tune it, infinite timing, and fuel curve adjustments, and injection pressures of 26,000psi +, yeah fuel atomization would be fantastic, but an ECM for an IDI, whats that? Just an idea.

This is kinda along the lines I was thinking while reading this thread. The only reason the IDI has "indirect injection" is because back in the 80's the technology didn't exist to direct inject, at a reasonable cost at least. Seems to me you could modify the heads to accept a direct injection injector and change your pistons to powerstroke pistons and then run at the high PSI fuel pressure with pumps for a 6.4L. You'd basically just end up with a really expensive powerstroke though

 

[dieselgiant]

Ya high cost and time consuming for shur. I wonder if you could still tune in the IDI rattle.

 

[Dave7.3]

I figured that reducing the turbo lag was the primary reason to shorten the plumbing in any event...people have done remote-mount turbos and ended up with considerable lag issues IIRC.

The custom manifolds going up are a good idea IMHO, but again, you run into the issue with space. Not that it can't be overcome, but can it be overcome while still having a rig that can be driven long distances comfortably (especially for this penguin who needs his a/c)?

As to lowering the compression ratio...I've said this before and I'll say it again. IMHO the Holy Grail of getting a low enough compression ratio to run high boost safely AND keep it so that the engine will start without a constant ether fog, is to redesign the precombustion chamber. Make it so that the extra room is gained there instead of in the main combustion chamber, and you SHOULD eliminate the cold-start problem inherent to milling the piston tops (best shown here). Thing is, then you get into dealing with swirl issues, and potentially also having problems with the precup walls being so thin that they burn out. But, IMHO if someone can do this, you'll have the best answer.

From the *** I had back and forth with the member that built that system (I can't find it atm, but I know he was a Sutton relation IIRC), he had to do a little firewall tenderizing, but I would think if PSDs could get away with it...we could too! If not, I think that could possibly be cured with some header wrap.

From what I also remember, Dave S's truck was not running low enough to give hard starts like the audio clip from Ken's truck at DPS. As far as I know, Dave Sponaugle still runs his truck as a snowplow and construction vehicle that requires him to keep it reliable.
I think you are onto something though. Achieving the lower compression through the precup rather than the main cylinder. I suppose that would take trial and error to really determine though. Maybe a little of both would be ideal?
Perhaps rather than milling the pistons, maybe adding deeper/wider valleys in the piston tops to give better combustion force distribution? Like how others here mentioned that distribution for DI engines with their 'cone' top pistons.

Or we just do the hail-mary like the last few posters and convert it over to a DI injection system!

 

[david85]

On idea that came up a while ago was to increase the size of the dish in the pistons similar to what some other IDIs. In the case of the mitsubishi 4D55 diesel, (similar era to the 6.9, but still in production today as a DI engine), the prechamber profile in the piston doubles as a twin valve relief that allows for more lift.

I'm not sure if the 6.9 could be converted to that sort of situation, but if so, it would not only increase the size of the prechamber, but also allow for a bigger lift camshaft. Being aluminum alloy pistons, it would be a pretty simply operation on any light duty CNC machine (which we have).

 

[RacinNdrummin]

i agree.
but I also have a responsibility to keep the peace around here too. this nonsense with NMB2 and his minions have gone on long enough and I'm getting complaints. therefore, something has to be done.

...anybody else who feels the urge to be banned, step forward and take it like a man...

Minions??? I know Im one of the guys this was directed towards, and Im actually kind of offended by it. First of all, Towcat, I had no reason not have respect for you, as I generally do for forum moderators... However, I think you've just shown that your no better than the ones that started this crap in the first place. Your job as moderator is not to make character judgements or assumptions, its to make sure that the guidelines spelled out in the user agreement are enforced, and thats it... You need to choose one path or the other. You cant take one side, and use your admin options to silence the other... Thats abuse of moderation power. Up until now, I have made no attacks on any individual in this forum, and I have put up with reading a whole lot of crap that has been cherry picked so that one side looks better than the other. The fact is, if your going to go out banning people, there are plenty of candidates that fit that bill as much as anybody who has been banned already, maybe you should go knocking on their doors. I realize the need for forum rules to be followed, but this Idea that there is no fudge room is simply rediculous and down right makes this forum laughable. Forums are places for discussion, debate, disagreement, and even debacles. If you have no sack to back up what you say, or get offended when somebody lays into you for being wrong or making false statements, then you shouldnt be participating in a forum discussion. I came to OB because I was under the assumption that it was the place to go for IDI info(That was before I even knew anybody else with an IDI) and after my short time here, I dont see anything but a conformist mentallity that really makes this forum practically useless. The fact is, if your "hot upgrade" isnt some version of a moose pump, and you actually have aspirations to make something of your IDI, Your questioned and then castigated, and when you question and castigate back, your banned by the same people doing the castigation. You all need to step back and take things a little lighter, just because somebody is self assured doesnt mean they dont have an opinion, and if you get your ******* in a wadd because OH MY GOSH, somebody used the word "I" then your a useless leech that just around to suck off the ingenuity of somebody else anyway.... As for me being a Minion... ... that just shows how much you dont know about me, and never will. I defended a friend in what I thought was one of several injustices, and now im being pigeonholed by a moderator for it... Thats the exact kind of BS im talking about, and wont be putting up with anymore. If you keep doing this to people that actually have a passion for these engines, your going to have no site left but a bunch of halfwitted line-toers who do "what they are told" From now on, Ill post with the "others" on a forum where disagreement is welcomed and people dont get so up in arms when the debate gets hot... Somewhere where info and discussion is abundant, not redundant...

Im outta here...

P.S. When mine and others tech starts getting cross posted here... youll know exactly what I mean...

 

[FordGuy100]

Another thread bites the dust.

 

[towcat]

Minions??? I know Im one of the guys this was directed towards, and Im actually kind of offended by it. First of all, Towcat, I had no reason not have respect for you, as I generally do for forum moderators... However, I think you've just shown that your no better than the ones that started this crap in the first place. Your job as moderator is not to make character judgements or assumptions, its to make sure that the guidelines spelled out in the user agreement are enforced, and thats it... You need to choose one path or the other. You cant take one side, and use your admin options to silence the other... Thats abuse of moderation power. Up until now, I have made no attacks on any individual in this forum, and I have put up with reading a whole lot of crap that has been cherry picked so that one side looks better than the other. The fact is, if your going to go out banning people, there are plenty of candidates that fit that bill as much as anybody who has been banned already, maybe you should go knocking on their doors. I realize the need for forum rules to be followed, but this Idea that there is no fudge room is simply rediculous and down right makes this forum laughable. Forums are places for discussion, debate, disagreement, and even debacles. If you have no sack to back up what you say, or get offended when somebody lays into you for being wrong or making false statements, then you shouldnt be participating in a forum discussion. I came to OB because I was under the assumption that it was the place to go for IDI info(That was before I even knew anybody else with an IDI) and after my short time here, I dont see anything but a conformist mentallity that really makes this forum practically useless. The fact is, if your "hot upgrade" isnt some version of a moose pump, and you actually have aspirations to make something of your IDI, Your questioned and then castigated, and when you question and castigate back, your banned by the same people doing the castigation. You all need to step back and take things a little lighter, just because somebody is self assured doesnt mean they dont have an opinion, and if you get your ******* in a wadd because OH MY GOSH, somebody used the word "I" then your a useless leech that just around to suck off the ingenuity of somebody else anyway.... As for me being a Minion... ... that just shows how much you dont know about me, and never will. I defended a friend in what I thought was one of several injustices, and now im being pigeonholed by a moderator for it... Thats the exact kind of BS im talking about, and wont be putting up with anymore. If you keep doing this to people that actually have a passion for these engines, your going to have no site left but a bunch of halfwitted line-toers who do "what they are told" From now on, Ill post with the "others" on a forum where disagreement is welcomed and people dont get so up in arms when the debate gets hot... Somewhere where info and discussion is abundant, not redundant...

Im outta here...

P.S. When mine and others tech starts getting cross posted here... youll know exactly what I mean...

bye-bye.

 

[towcat]

Another thread bites the dust.

It's not getting closed. Most everyone is staying on track.