won't start

[Boston]

I appreciate the help, I was thinking that smoke was just the engine burning up oil that might be getting past the rings. If its fuel, then at least there's hope for the IP, although anyone seeing that fuel solenoid switch can't possibly think this things actually rebuilt.

I'll play with the wiring again, maybe I've got a bad connection or something, but if I did, I think it would click in and out rather than simply say its ready to start.

I'm investigating a hot box, it couldn't be any simpler, on or off, indicator light, Nichrome wire element would around an old ceramic from a used toaster, gauged for length and voltage to give me proper temp, placed under the top of the air filter. That way I can just eliminate the glow plug problem entirely, no possibility of blown plugs, no worries about faulty circuits or controllers. Oh I'll play with it a little bit, but if its to much torture, the glow plugs are gone. I can add about 1K watts of heating element and be at about the same temp range as the glow plugs. If I remember this is what cummins does on there larger units.

Once I get the start issue solved, its on to the forever leaking return fuel system. I think I'be blown maybe 2 or 3 hundred on that so far, and still it leaks like a sieve. My bet is there must be some way to just weld the weep holes closed on the injectors and eliminate the whole system entirely. I can't imagine any serious gear head putting up with that nonsense forever.

 

[Hydro-idi]

Haha well yes, your glow plug system should leave glowplugs lit for around 10 seconds give or take, then click on and off for a few more seconds to prevent burning out glowplugs. These glowplug systems can need maintenance from time to time, but they work well when the entire system is working properly. But I would try the starting fluid just to make sure. Something tells me your GPC or fender relay isn't working (same thing happened to me).
Yes, white smoke from tailpipe means glowsticks aren't helping aid the combustion in cylinders in most cases.

 

[riotwarrior]

There is no way that as many return lines as you say you have done, new caps, new o rings and lines and clamps could continually fail to this degree with out some other issue causing the LEAK.

Have you inspected and I mean extremely thoroughly the injector tops, the areas where the O rings go and so forth for damage nicks or other issues?

Have you replaced all the injectors...at the same time? If not perhaps it's time...

The electric fuel pump should eliminate any and all air intrusion concerns IMHO.

Grid heater likely won't work as good as glow plugs for this rig.

You show two IP tops and ask a question without giving the answer. Which one is which?

The problem you describe...2 minutes of cranking non stop to get fired...sounds like AIR more than GP...

JM2CW

 

[Hydro-idi]

Good point riotwarrior. The injector o rings and caps need lots and lots of vaseline before installation. If you put them on dry, the o rings will get torn up and eventually cause annoying fuel leaks and also introduce air into the fuel system.

 

[wmoguy]

A return line kit is about $30 for a complete kit. How have you managed to burn a "few hundred bucks " on that so far?

BTW I asked a year ago about a grid intake heater. General consensus was that it would help but not replace the value of working glow plugs. Remember this is an IDI not a direct injection diesel in which you are borrowing the grid intake idea from.

 

[OLDBULL8]

I think you can't see the woods for the trees. That many return line kits is crazy. There are two different sizes. On is 3/16" ID hose and the other is 1/4" ID hose. Do not use gear clamps on the hose, use only the spring style, they come in several different colors, Red, Green, Blue etc. IIRC Red for 1/4" Green for 3/16". Now the hose must fit the caps tight when slipped on without the clamps, do not lube them. The O'rings must be well lubed before putting them on, Vasoline is good. Put one O'ring in the top groove and roll the next one over it to the bottom groove. Check the caps for flashing on the inside, scrape it off if any. The top inside of the cap is a little smaller and must be snapped down, take a 5/8" deep socket and place it on top of the cap and tap it down.

Now as far as welding the holes in the injector, you can do that, BUT YOU WILL NEVER GET ANY FUEL INTO THE INJECTORS, and you might as well throw the IP, lift pump, fuel tanks, filter and all those return line kits away.

This style clamps, not necessarily the size. http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ac...1961-2005/_/N-25x2?itemIdentifier=347151_0_0_

OK Russ the hoses are MM.

 

[Boston]

first things first

Nice ass


yes the injectors were all replaced all at the same time

The carrier pump seems to work fine

the beat to a pulp, covered in metal shavings, half melted solenoid,
is the new one
the one on the bottom, nice and clean, no wear, no exposed wiring, works, is the old one.

needless to say, I strongly suspect this pump wasn't rebuilt at all

Yes I've purchased parts for the injector return lines both separately and in kit form, multiple times, I've also replaced all fuel lines with superthane tubing, as well as purchased dozens of viton o rings and top of the line clamps. I've used dental like precision in building each side on the bench then installing with varying amounts of lubricants. on the injectors, rings, and caps, I've done all eight at least 7 or 8 times and attempted singles three or four. I've checked to see that the line going back to the tanks is clear, its new actually, and that the fittings are all clean and clear of obstructions. I've checked for burs and I've disassembled and reassembled completely, every time. It leaks, there's just no fixing it

I not kidding when I ask about welding those weep holes closed on the injectors and abandoning the system entirely.

Just a bit of background, I own a small wood shop and build custom antique windows as well as custom hardware. I have access to a machine shop in which I spend some fraction of my week and all in all, if someone wants some bizarre window built or has a difficult historic restoration I'm pretty well known in town as the go to guy. That said. I've seldom in my life been so completely humiliated by a simple pile of hoses and caps. I'm pretty much done and if its possible to just weld the bastads together and call it done. I've got a welder and I'm pretty much ready to go. But thats issue #2. First thing is I need to resolve this start problem, its never started very easily and no mater what I've done, its just getting worse.

Hmmmmmm
interesting stuff on the grid heater, Ok its an IDI, but would enough heat in the incoming air not fire it ? particularly if the glow plug system is hopeless. I've been fighting that for quite some time as well, matter of fact I've yet to ever be able to use the truck in the winter simply because it will not start, no mater what, under about 50°F. even with the block heater, without, its not going to fire under about 70°F

I guess I'll go try and look up every part in the glow plug system and what its specs are so I can begin to do it all again and check and recheck all the bits and pieces. I should have made copies of the info last time I did this but, silly me, I was thinking that it could be fixed in just one go round.

I really have done just about everything on this nightmare at least three or four times ( average ) and it still dosn't run.

Sorry
none of the frustration is directed at you guys. Its just my beater car is about done for and now I'm going to have to go buy a new car, cause the damn truck just won't F run.

 

[Hydro-idi]

I kind of ignored the pictures of the IP solenoids. That doesn't look like a proper rebuild in my opinion. Which solenoid is currently on your IP??
Also, I would consider a push button glowplug system because of the issues you have been having. Just throwing ideas out there for you.

 

[wmoguy]

The glow plug systems in these things, as annoying as they can be at times, are actually really stout. Mine in the middle of a Colorado winter up elk hunting has fired up fine at -7 without giving her a squirt of ether. The grid intake for this idi i am going to say will work the equivalent of having only a few working glow plugs.

No send in throwing the baby out with the bath water here Boston ( on the glow plugs)

Just a thought, but since this thing is getting on your nerves and you've blown way to much money on it and it's still not running, maybe consider taking it to a professional experienced in diesels? I could refer you to one in Loveland or one in Greeley, both which are very trustworthy.

 

[Boston]

Well the "new" one crapped out completely and left me stranded about 120 miles from home. I spent a few days driving back and forth and working in the 105°F heat going through everything imaginable until I finally gave up and by day 4 just ate it and paid for a tow. It would be hard for anyone who didn't experience it to imagine just how much fun that was.

I have the lower unit in the picture, out of the old dead pump I replaced, on the "new" pump now. As I said, I don't think anyone could possibly look at that and think it was even remotely rebuilt. Even if I can get the bastad to run, I'm going to have to plan on replacing that "new" IP I suspect, very soon. Like this winter some time.

I'm not familiar with a push button glow plug system so if you could explain it to me I'd be in a better position to figure out whats best.

B

 

[Boston]

Bulb, I've done exactly as you suggested, multiple times, only thing I've done differently is axle greece instead of vaseline, I used the exact type of hose clamps you suggested, cleaned the inside of the caps, carefully listened for the "snap" as the cap seats, you name it, I've tried it. And I'm about to try it again with the new kit that was suggested. But my faith in this system is right about zilch just about now. The only time it didn't leak was when I first replaced them a few years ago, when I got the truck out of the field, I did nothing different then that I'm doing now.

Oh and the option of a mechanic is out of the question, I've always turned my own wrenches and if I can't figure it out, then I won't own it. My theory is there must be a way to simplify the glow plug system so it actually works. Even if I end up building whatever that push button system is. I suppose if I can't weld the weep holes on the injectors closed Then I could always machine some caps for them and press then on, weld them down and leave a whole for the fuel to return from. But what an unbelievable pain in the ass.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I bet I spent more than my original estimate on the return lines. I'm adding up all the new crap I'm going to need and its easily $100 just for the kit and viton rings. So $300 would only be a few attempts, I've probably done this a dozen times.

I'm not as concerned that the grid heater system not work as well, I'm concerned that it work at all. Right now the truck is undrivable because the problems starting it have gone from bad to worse until finally it died on me 120 miles from home and left me stranded. Thats a first for me, I've never once in life ever ended up, after several days of working on something dead on the side of the road, ended up needing a tow. Not once. The last thing imaginable was that the nice new injector pump I'd pay'd an arm and a leg for was in fact, lipstick on a pig. That time it turned out to be the fuel shut off solenoid.

Oh and now I'm fighting with PartsGeek over this pile of crap they sent me thats not even remotely what I ordered. I gave up trying to get them to straighten it out and just went and bought the stuff somewhere else, but oh my god, try and deal with there customer service, I asked where to send the stuff as they only list a PO box and four days later they sent this response

A customer support staff member has replied to your support request, #513129 with the following response:

Dan Since we have begun this ticket feed you have not able to provide any direct information, yet manage to give direct criticism of the lack of the help and service. You do not know what you are returning, nor have you been forthcoming in trying to have this resolved. Our last request of action was for you to send back what you BELIEVE to be wrong and you will credited for what is returned, This WAS also being allow as A COURTESY for return being that the order was place back in MAY. We will now deny the return due to it being past our 30 days return.

I kept telling them the numbers don't match up on anything and gave them all the numbers for each part that didn't fit, they spent weeks insisting that I identify the parts and then finally just said to return what I have and they'd figure it out, when I asked for an address to sent it to, this is what I got.

Amazing, absolutely amazing, how do you guys put up with this crap. I'd get a lawyer except its only a maybe $150 in junk, That and I'd better cancel the card I put it on. But still what an epic PITA this is turning out to be. Start to finish everything about it has been like pulling teeth.

 

[wmoguy]

With all due respect Boston, you'd be best served rethinking some of the advice here which you've shunned from long time members who have forgot more about these things than you and I will ever learn.

If you do decide to "weld" your injectors take lots of pics and video. I think many would love to see the frankenbomb.



Quote of Oldbull:

I think you can't see the woods for the trees. That many return line kits is crazy. There are two different sizes. On is 3/16" ID hose and the other is 1/4" ID hose. Do not use gear clamps on the hose, use only the spring style, they come in several different colors, Red, Green, Blue etc. IIRC Red for 1/4" Green for 3/16". Now the hose must fit the caps tight when slipped on without the clamps, do not lube them. The O'rings must be well lubed before putting them on, Vasoline is good. Put one O'ring in the top groove and roll the next one over it to the bottom groove. Check the caps for flashing on the inside, scrape it off if any. The top inside of the cap is a little smaller and must be snapped down, take a 5/8" deep socket and place it on top of the cap and tap it down.

Now as far as welding the holes in the injector, you can do that, BUT YOU WILL NEVER GET ANY FUEL INTO THE INJECTORS, and you might as well throw the IP, lift pump, fuel tanks, filter and all those return line kits away.

This style clamps, not necessarily the size. http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...er=347151_0_0_

OK Russ the hoses are MM.

 

[mobilemech]

well if all the help here is not welcomed or recieved very well and with all the problems your having that havent been resolved yet, maybe you need to sell it and move on to something easier to work on.

 

[Boston]

I don't recall shunning any advice other than maybe being told to give up.

I do recall being told conflicting things and choosing between them. Then being ridiculed for not having done what one or another suggested. I've for the most part taken a lot of advice here and found some of it sound and some not so sound. I've also had people ridicule the effort simply because having received several pieces of conflicting advice I was left with having to chose between the two. Not cool at all.

I've also taken the advice ( if you've been reading along ) and moved from the idea of eliminating the problem by welding the weep holes closed to maybe welding a metal fabricated cap onto the injectors and eliminating the O rings that seem to be a permanent leak. I can put a hose nipple on it and maybe get it to hold that way. Whatever it takes, I can't have fuel leaking down onto the headers that turned out to also be so much torture.

So how it is that I'm being told again that I'm not taking advice I just cant imagine, I've done nothing but take advice, and now I'm moving forward with seeking new solutions and advice to problems that simply won't go away.

Several chronic issues seem to be obvious, leaky injectors and poor starting. Runs like a bat out a hell once you get it going. So giving up is just not an option. but not taking advice, please.

I'll give the new kit, ( the one suggested that I mentioned I'd try ) a try, and I'll make it a point to use vaseline exactly as specified, however, having carefully read the "advice" I'm purportedly ignoring its obvious that I've done exactly as that advice is described. I'll do it, again, also as suggested, but the concept of being told I'm not taking advice when I obviously am, is, well lets just call it icing on the cake.

 

[prepowerstroke]

Once I get the start issue solved I'm going to have to do something to solve this ridiculous return fuel line system problem, but first to make the bastad start consistently. Has anyone ever just welded the holes closed on the injectors and given up on the return system ?


well i had the same problem with the return lines leaking and the truck not starting so what i did was take the return line that goes from the filter housing to the number one injector return line i cut the hose in half and stuck bolts in each end to plug it off at both ends and that totally fixed my problem been 6 months and no problems with that hose plugged off the return lines can suck air and not drain the fuel filter